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You have to be running 100% coal power plants before EVs are worse for the environment. For a pure oil fired power grid, which does not exist anywhere in Americ

You have to be running 100% coal power plants before EVs are worse for the environment. For a pure oil fired power grid, which does not exist anywhere in America, EVs would win hands down. Once you get to a mix of natural gas, coal, and renewables, which is actually what the US grid looks like then EVs are massively better than gasoline cars.

wwtrv 5y ago
Internal combustion engines are actually very efficient. Burning gasoline in a power plant produces 2.13 pounds of CO2 per kWh, Model 3 LR consumes 16 kWh per 100km, so 34.08lb of CO2. A car consuming 7 liters of gas per 100km would emit 35lb of CO2. I assume energy loss from plant to battery is not insignificant so the IC should be better if the power grid is 100% petroleum (for coal it should be 2x worse). Sources: https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=74&t=11 https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=74&t=11 https://theicct.org/sites/default/files/info-tools/One%20table%20to%20rule%20them%20all%20v1.pdf https://theicct.org/sites/default/files/info-tools/One%20tab...
- gpm 5y ago
  Worth noting that your CO2 emission value for gasoline powered vehicles is tailpipe emissions, the total value (well to wheels) should be very roughly 25% higher. I don't know exactly what CO2 production your power plant number includes. https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.est.6b02819#tbl1 https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.est.6b02819#tbl1
  - wwtrv 5y ago
    Thanks just wanted to make a rough approximation since a purely coal/petrol network is not realistic anyway. https://www.eia.gov/tools/glossary/index.php?id=Net%20generation https://www.eia.gov/tools/glossary/index.php?id=Net%20genera... I believe it’s electricity generated at the plant, so we should add 5-15% for transmission losses and 8-20% depending on charger efficiency. Assuming 5% transmission and 10% charging loss using the well-to-wheel figures you posted charging in a 100% coal grid should be equivalent to and around 5.7l/100km / 41mpg IC car.
    - ashtonkem 5y ago
      If you use the 16kWh per 100km numbers you provided perhaps. This number however is wrong. The official EPA estimate for the Model 3 is 14.88kWh, not 16kWh per 100km. Real world testing yields an even lower value of 12kWh. https://thedriven.io/2020/10/20/model-3-achieves-record-low-energy-consumption-in-driving-efficiency-test/ https://thedriven.io/2020/10/20/model-3-achieves-record-low-...
Tagbert 5y ago
All the reports I’ve seen show that, from a CO2 standpoint, an EV powered 100% by coal still produced less CO2 than gasoline even though there is additional CO2 produced during the battery production. It takes about 14K miles for an EV to reach the point in its lifetime where it is producing less CO2 overall than a gasoline car. After that, it’s all upside. EVen then most electric grids are not so dirty and include a mix of coal, oil, gas, hydro, solar and wind with the renewable percentage increasing.
busymom0 5y ago
Genuine question from someone who's a big fan of Teslas. Almost all the EV benefits seem to come from the power source. But I don't see much on addressing the actual battery manufacturing process. The cobalt being used in the batteries seems to be coming from unethical sources using child and slave labour practices in Congo: > Cobalt has also been called the “blood diamond of batteries.” More than 70 percent of the world’s cobalt is produced in the Democratic Republic of the Congo (DRC), and 15 to 30 percent of the Congolese cobalt is produced by artisanal and small-scale mining (ASM). For years, human rights groups have documented severe human rights issues in mining operations. These human rights risks are particularly high in artisanal mines in the DRC, a country weakened by violent ethnic conflict, Ebola, and high levels of corruption. Child labor, fatal accidents, and violent clashes between artisanal miners and security personnel of large mining firms are recurrent. > According to recent projections by the World Economic Forum’s Global Battery Alliance, the demand for cobalt for use in batteries will grow fourfold in 2030 as a result of this electric vehicle boom. https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/business/batteries/congo-cobalt-mining-for-lithium-ion-battery/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/business/batteries/c... https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jan/05/cutting-cobalt-challenge-battery-industry-electric-cars-congo https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jan/05/cutting-... https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelposner/2020/10/07/how-tesla-should-combat-child-labor-in-the-democratic-republic-of-the-congo/?sh=67bf93be5cd0 https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelposner/2020/10/07/how-te... https://www.cfr.org/blog/why-cobalt-mining-drc-needs-urgent-attention https://www.cfr.org/blog/why-cobalt-mining-drc-needs-urgent-... So my questions are: 1. Are we sure this is the right move since at least when it comes to oil, we can mostly ensure the people working in oil fields are adults who are paid very well - especially as we become independent of foreign oil. For cobalt, we can't do that so far? 2. Has anyone done a full analysis of the side effects of cobalt, lithium and other extractions on environment from start (mining) all the way to finish (when an EV breaks down / junkyard etc?)
- vardump 5y ago
  While current non-LFP Tesla batteries still have cobalt, I don't think any of Tesla's newer battery designs contain it. Seems like they're completely phasing out use of it. Tesla is also developing environmentally friendly ways to extract lithium, see a recent discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27853978 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27853978 The results remain to be seen, I hope they're going to be successful reducing their environmental impact.

wwtrv 5y ago

Internal combustion engines are actually very efficient. Burning gasoline in a power plant produces 2.13 pounds of CO2 per kWh, Model 3 LR consumes 16 kWh per 100km, so 34.08lb of CO2. A car consuming 7 liters of gas per 100km would emit 35lb of CO2. I assume energy loss from plant to battery is not insignificant so the IC should be better if the power grid is 100% petroleum (for coal it should be 2x worse). Sources: https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=74&t=11 https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=74&t=11 https://theicct.org/sites/default/files/info-tools/One%20table%20to%20rule%20them%20all%20v1.pdf https://theicct.org/sites/default/files/info-tools/One%20tab...

gpm 5y ago
Worth noting that your CO2 emission value for gasoline powered vehicles is tailpipe emissions, the total value (well to wheels) should be very roughly 25% higher. I don't know exactly what CO2 production your power plant number includes. https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.est.6b02819#tbl1 https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.est.6b02819#tbl1
- wwtrv 5y ago
  Thanks just wanted to make a rough approximation since a purely coal/petrol network is not realistic anyway. https://www.eia.gov/tools/glossary/index.php?id=Net%20generation https://www.eia.gov/tools/glossary/index.php?id=Net%20genera... I believe it’s electricity generated at the plant, so we should add 5-15% for transmission losses and 8-20% depending on charger efficiency. Assuming 5% transmission and 10% charging loss using the well-to-wheel figures you posted charging in a 100% coal grid should be equivalent to and around 5.7l/100km / 41mpg IC car.
  - ashtonkem 5y ago
    If you use the 16kWh per 100km numbers you provided perhaps. This number however is wrong. The official EPA estimate for the Model 3 is 14.88kWh, not 16kWh per 100km. Real world testing yields an even lower value of 12kWh. https://thedriven.io/2020/10/20/model-3-achieves-record-low-energy-consumption-in-driving-efficiency-test/ https://thedriven.io/2020/10/20/model-3-achieves-record-low-...

Tagbert 5y ago

All the reports I’ve seen show that, from a CO2 standpoint, an EV powered 100% by coal still produced less CO2 than gasoline even though there is additional CO2 produced during the battery production. It takes about 14K miles for an EV to reach the point in its lifetime where it is producing less CO2 overall than a gasoline car. After that, it’s all upside. EVen then most electric grids are not so dirty and include a mix of coal, oil, gas, hydro, solar and wind with the renewable percentage increasing.

busymom0 5y ago

Genuine question from someone who's a big fan of Teslas. Almost all the EV benefits seem to come from the power source. But I don't see much on addressing the actual battery manufacturing process. The cobalt being used in the batteries seems to be coming from unethical sources using child and slave labour practices in Congo: > Cobalt has also been called the “blood diamond of batteries.” More than 70 percent of the world’s cobalt is produced in the Democratic Republic of the Congo (DRC), and 15 to 30 percent of the Congolese cobalt is produced by artisanal and small-scale mining (ASM). For years, human rights groups have documented severe human rights issues in mining operations. These human rights risks are particularly high in artisanal mines in the DRC, a country weakened by violent ethnic conflict, Ebola, and high levels of corruption. Child labor, fatal accidents, and violent clashes between artisanal miners and security personnel of large mining firms are recurrent. > According to recent projections by the World Economic Forum’s Global Battery Alliance, the demand for cobalt for use in batteries will grow fourfold in 2030 as a result of this electric vehicle boom. https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/business/batteries/congo-cobalt-mining-for-lithium-ion-battery/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/business/batteries/c... https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jan/05/cutting-cobalt-challenge-battery-industry-electric-cars-congo https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jan/05/cutting-... https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelposner/2020/10/07/how-tesla-should-combat-child-labor-in-the-democratic-republic-of-the-congo/?sh=67bf93be5cd0 https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelposner/2020/10/07/how-te... https://www.cfr.org/blog/why-cobalt-mining-drc-needs-urgent-attention https://www.cfr.org/blog/why-cobalt-mining-drc-needs-urgent-... So my questions are: 1. Are we sure this is the right move since at least when it comes to oil, we can mostly ensure the people working in oil fields are adults who are paid very well - especially as we become independent of foreign oil. For cobalt, we can't do that so far? 2. Has anyone done a full analysis of the side effects of cobalt, lithium and other extractions on environment from start (mining) all the way to finish (when an EV breaks down / junkyard etc?)

vardump 5y ago
While current non-LFP Tesla batteries still have cobalt, I don't think any of Tesla's newer battery designs contain it. Seems like they're completely phasing out use of it. Tesla is also developing environmentally friendly ways to extract lithium, see a recent discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27853978 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27853978 The results remain to be seen, I hope they're going to be successful reducing their environmental impact.