5 ms·

I think if you are willing to ignore 50% of the population, well, I don't know what to tell you other than that history does not look kindly on partisans.

rayiner 5y ago
Not just 50% of the population. Folks on the left will sniffily tell you that stuff where the vast majority of the rest of humanity agrees with the right isn’t even up for discussion.
- snypher 5y ago
  We shouldn't have the hubris to think the "vast majority of the rest of humanity" agrees with us at all.
- esrauch 5y ago
  Your sentence is really the same divisive "other side is crazy" crap that everyone else is complaining about. Folks on both the left and right (under US definitions) will sniffily do that same thing and act like their positions are obviously correct and the other side obviously unreasonable.
  - systemvoltage 5y ago
    The left controls all corporations and big tech (see Google’s new policy for misinformation). So one side has an unreasonable amount of power.
  - rayiner 5y ago
    When was that? 30 years ago? Try having a conversation today with a progressive about virtually any issue where American conservatives may agree with people in Asia or Africa (or even a big chunk of moderate Democrats). I noticed this particularly acutely in how progressives have rallied around Muslims but you can’t actually talk about a bunch of stuff my Bangladeshi mom and aunts believe. Same sex marriage is one example, but also abortion, gender roles, child rearing, civil order, religion in schools, etc. Ironically, as a result, you can’t have public conversations about a bunch of stuff many Democrats (particularly non-white Democrats) believe. When Obama have a speech about dads raising their kids, he was shouted down by white liberals. Can’t talk about Latino views on abortion, or Muslim views on gender roles and procreative marriage.
    - tptacek 5y ago
      I don't remember Obama being shouted down by anyone, for what it's worth.
    - esrauch 5y ago
      I really think your specific political leanings are deeply clouding your view of things. People on the side X have conversations with other people on the same side about all topics and discuss the finer points. That is true for both sides. People on side X can't have any conversation with people on side Y about any of the topics because both sides just instantly devolve into tribalism and accusing the other side of being unreasonable. Which is exactly what you're doing, and what you're saying the left does to you I don't know where you're getting "30 years ago". It's worse today than ever across both sides.
      - rayiner 5y ago
        My politics are middle of the road by normal people standards. Among people in my bubble (college-educated urban liberals), it’s very difficult to discuss completely normie takes like “we should control immigration to limit cultural change.” (This is a position that’s not only pretty widely held in America, but would be axiomatic in Bangladesh where I’m from and most other countries as well. As far as I can tell, many American liberals think race and culture are the same thing. I’m not sure.) Talking with college-educated conservatives and expressing similarly normie liberal takes, like “we should let gay people get married” is by contrast not hard at all. I would have to go out of my way to find some evangelicals in the Deep South who won’t even discuss the idea and dismiss it as “blasphemy” or some such. But that’s really my point. Urban liberals have embraced a worldview (especially on social issues) that’s as ideologically fervent as what I remember about evangelical Christians during the Bush era.
        dragonwriter 5y ago
        > Among people in my bubble (college-educated urban liberals), it’s very difficult to discuss completely normie takes like “we should control immigration to limit cultural change.” Weird, in my bubble (mostly college-educated, mostly urban-to-suburban, mostly liberal-to-progressive, though there are many exceptions on every axis), that wouldn’t even be a controversial statement (once you got into mechanisms of limitation and more specific cultural concerns such as what kind of drift you wanted to avoid, there would be debate, though, both over principles and pragmatics.) > As far as I can tell, many American liberals think race and culture are the same thing They aren’t the same thing, though they are (contrart to racist models) very closely related. > I would have to go out of my way to find some evangelicals in the Deep South who won’t even discuss the idea and dismiss it as “blasphemy” or some such. Huh, I can find plenty of college educated, urban California religious conservatives (not necessarily evangelicals) who see it that way without much effort. (Like, zero effort when I go to church.)
techrat 5y ago
>well, I don't know what to tell you other than that history does not look kindly on partisans. "Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing." If the only way to stop an act of violence is with an act of violence, allowing it to happen in the first place, as you would condemn the response of violence, ends up being the greater evil. Also look up 'The Paradox of Tolerance.' Saying it is to be 'partisan' to call out injustice is the ultimate in hypocrisy. History has already condemned those who stepped back and did nothing.

rayiner 5y ago

Not just 50% of the population. Folks on the left will sniffily tell you that stuff where the vast majority of the rest of humanity agrees with the right isn’t even up for discussion.

snypher 5y ago
We shouldn't have the hubris to think the "vast majority of the rest of humanity" agrees with us at all.
esrauch 5y ago
Your sentence is really the same divisive "other side is crazy" crap that everyone else is complaining about. Folks on both the left and right (under US definitions) will sniffily do that same thing and act like their positions are obviously correct and the other side obviously unreasonable.
- systemvoltage 5y ago
  The left controls all corporations and big tech (see Google’s new policy for misinformation). So one side has an unreasonable amount of power.
- rayiner 5y ago
  When was that? 30 years ago? Try having a conversation today with a progressive about virtually any issue where American conservatives may agree with people in Asia or Africa (or even a big chunk of moderate Democrats). I noticed this particularly acutely in how progressives have rallied around Muslims but you can’t actually talk about a bunch of stuff my Bangladeshi mom and aunts believe. Same sex marriage is one example, but also abortion, gender roles, child rearing, civil order, religion in schools, etc. Ironically, as a result, you can’t have public conversations about a bunch of stuff many Democrats (particularly non-white Democrats) believe. When Obama have a speech about dads raising their kids, he was shouted down by white liberals. Can’t talk about Latino views on abortion, or Muslim views on gender roles and procreative marriage.
  - tptacek 5y ago
    I don't remember Obama being shouted down by anyone, for what it's worth.
  - esrauch 5y ago
    I really think your specific political leanings are deeply clouding your view of things. People on the side X have conversations with other people on the same side about all topics and discuss the finer points. That is true for both sides. People on side X can't have any conversation with people on side Y about any of the topics because both sides just instantly devolve into tribalism and accusing the other side of being unreasonable. Which is exactly what you're doing, and what you're saying the left does to you I don't know where you're getting "30 years ago". It's worse today than ever across both sides.
    - rayiner 5y ago
      My politics are middle of the road by normal people standards. Among people in my bubble (college-educated urban liberals), it’s very difficult to discuss completely normie takes like “we should control immigration to limit cultural change.” (This is a position that’s not only pretty widely held in America, but would be axiomatic in Bangladesh where I’m from and most other countries as well. As far as I can tell, many American liberals think race and culture are the same thing. I’m not sure.) Talking with college-educated conservatives and expressing similarly normie liberal takes, like “we should let gay people get married” is by contrast not hard at all. I would have to go out of my way to find some evangelicals in the Deep South who won’t even discuss the idea and dismiss it as “blasphemy” or some such. But that’s really my point. Urban liberals have embraced a worldview (especially on social issues) that’s as ideologically fervent as what I remember about evangelical Christians during the Bush era.
      - dragonwriter 5y ago
        > Among people in my bubble (college-educated urban liberals), it’s very difficult to discuss completely normie takes like “we should control immigration to limit cultural change.” Weird, in my bubble (mostly college-educated, mostly urban-to-suburban, mostly liberal-to-progressive, though there are many exceptions on every axis), that wouldn’t even be a controversial statement (once you got into mechanisms of limitation and more specific cultural concerns such as what kind of drift you wanted to avoid, there would be debate, though, both over principles and pragmatics.) > As far as I can tell, many American liberals think race and culture are the same thing They aren’t the same thing, though they are (contrart to racist models) very closely related. > I would have to go out of my way to find some evangelicals in the Deep South who won’t even discuss the idea and dismiss it as “blasphemy” or some such. Huh, I can find plenty of college educated, urban California religious conservatives (not necessarily evangelicals) who see it that way without much effort. (Like, zero effort when I go to church.)

techrat 5y ago

>well, I don't know what to tell you other than that history does not look kindly on partisans. "Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing." If the only way to stop an act of violence is with an act of violence, allowing it to happen in the first place, as you would condemn the response of violence, ends up being the greater evil. Also look up 'The Paradox of Tolerance.' Saying it is to be 'partisan' to call out injustice is the ultimate in hypocrisy. History has already condemned those who stepped back and did nothing.