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Why would it need to exist? I feel like you're reaching for a philosophical argument here for a question which is already adequately resolved by physics and bi

by skohan 5y ago

Why would it need to exist? I feel like you're reaching for a philosophical argument here for a question which is already adequately resolved by physics and biology.

throwanem 5y ago
It seems like the question is fundamentally that of whether a given system can perfectly model its own state, but in this context that entails an implicit assumption that the brain's model of body state is perfect, which it is anything but.
- skohan 5y ago
  I guess I don't really think any system would be able to model it's own state 100% accurately. Basically any model implies a reduction in information. I don't see what this has to do with pain perception in the brain. I am sure you could find an example in the animal kingdom of a creature which has pain receptors in its brain if you look hard enough.
  - srean 5y ago
    Don't get hung up on 'pain perception', my point sits at a higher level of abstraction. It has very little to do with biology, more to do with topology. If 'events at point_a' gets consciously interpreted by participation of cells one of which, lets call it point_b, is singularly dedicated to sensing events at point_a, we have a mapping in a mathematical sense from point a to point b. We know all such point_bs form a strict subset of the body, a part of the central nervous system. If this mapping is continuous in the mathematical sense and a contraction, then a fixed point has to exist (a location that does its own interpretation). But the fixed point seems biologically implausible, that leaves us with the alternative that there has to be dead-zones -- places where events can happen but cannot be interpreted. (Example blind spot in the eye) The way to avoid dead-zone would be to break continuity, or contractive property of the mapping. > I am sure you could find an example … of a creature which has pain receptors in the brain … I think my point would be easier to state for this hypothetical creature. If interpretation of pain is done by a strict subset of its cells and there is a one to one mapping -- at least one location b that interprets pain occurring at location a exclusively (presumably that's how the creature knows the pain is at 'a'), can this creature be free of dead-zones if the mapping is continuous and contractive. Can any creature free of dead-zones exist under those conditions. You claimed 'why not'. I am saying that if the mapping is a continuous contraction then either there has to exist dead zones or there is at least one self interpreting location. To give another example of this phenomenon, if you spread the map of your city somewhere in your city, there has to exist at least one point in the map that sits exactly above the point it is representing -- the fixed point. The way to avoid this would be to have 'tears' in the map, or to have points in your city that are not closer on the map than they are in the city (that would be an unusual map).
srean 5y ago
Nothing to do with philosophy but with existence of fixed points. Are you familiar with the mathematical notion of a fixed point (think y-combinator) and fixed point theorems ? The gist of it is that if there is a continuous mapping from a set to itself with the property that the mapped points are closer than the original points there must exist a point that maps to itself. Now if the pain location mapping is smooth and a contraction (not implausible because number of cells in the brain is smaller than the number of cells in the entire body), there would be a neuron in the brain that would have been self aware in the sense that its pain mapping would have mapped to itself. Note it is possible to avoid having a fixed point for a mapping from a set itself (consider a permutation of numbers 1..n so that no number is in its own place). It is just an intriguing notion -- is a fixed point, self aware neuron possible
- skohan 5y ago
  I just don't think this is a very interesting thing to contemplate, because I don't think any single neuron can be "aware" in isolation. Neurons are just information processing units and transmission untis. Awareness surely has to be a function of the activity of multiple neurons communicating with one another.

by skohan 5y ago

Why would it need to exist? I feel like you're reaching for a philosophical argument here for a question which is already adequately resolved by physics and biology.

throwanem 5y ago

It seems like the question is fundamentally that of whether a given system can perfectly model its own state, but in this context that entails an implicit assumption that the brain's model of body state is perfect, which it is anything but.

skohan 5y ago
I guess I don't really think any system would be able to model it's own state 100% accurately. Basically any model implies a reduction in information. I don't see what this has to do with pain perception in the brain. I am sure you could find an example in the animal kingdom of a creature which has pain receptors in its brain if you look hard enough.
- srean 5y ago
  Don't get hung up on 'pain perception', my point sits at a higher level of abstraction. It has very little to do with biology, more to do with topology. If 'events at point_a' gets consciously interpreted by participation of cells one of which, lets call it point_b, is singularly dedicated to sensing events at point_a, we have a mapping in a mathematical sense from point a to point b. We know all such point_bs form a strict subset of the body, a part of the central nervous system. If this mapping is continuous in the mathematical sense and a contraction, then a fixed point has to exist (a location that does its own interpretation). But the fixed point seems biologically implausible, that leaves us with the alternative that there has to be dead-zones -- places where events can happen but cannot be interpreted. (Example blind spot in the eye) The way to avoid dead-zone would be to break continuity, or contractive property of the mapping. > I am sure you could find an example … of a creature which has pain receptors in the brain … I think my point would be easier to state for this hypothetical creature. If interpretation of pain is done by a strict subset of its cells and there is a one to one mapping -- at least one location b that interprets pain occurring at location a exclusively (presumably that's how the creature knows the pain is at 'a'), can this creature be free of dead-zones if the mapping is continuous and contractive. Can any creature free of dead-zones exist under those conditions. You claimed 'why not'. I am saying that if the mapping is a continuous contraction then either there has to exist dead zones or there is at least one self interpreting location. To give another example of this phenomenon, if you spread the map of your city somewhere in your city, there has to exist at least one point in the map that sits exactly above the point it is representing -- the fixed point. The way to avoid this would be to have 'tears' in the map, or to have points in your city that are not closer on the map than they are in the city (that would be an unusual map).

srean 5y ago

Nothing to do with philosophy but with existence of fixed points. Are you familiar with the mathematical notion of a fixed point (think y-combinator) and fixed point theorems ? The gist of it is that if there is a continuous mapping from a set to itself with the property that the mapped points are closer than the original points there must exist a point that maps to itself. Now if the pain location mapping is smooth and a contraction (not implausible because number of cells in the brain is smaller than the number of cells in the entire body), there would be a neuron in the brain that would have been self aware in the sense that its pain mapping would have mapped to itself. Note it is possible to avoid having a fixed point for a mapping from a set itself (consider a permutation of numbers 1..n so that no number is in its own place). It is just an intriguing notion -- is a fixed point, self aware neuron possible

skohan 5y ago
I just don't think this is a very interesting thing to contemplate, because I don't think any single neuron can be "aware" in isolation. Neurons are just information processing units and transmission untis. Awareness surely has to be a function of the activity of multiple neurons communicating with one another.