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> Hah. The first encounters between the French and the US in WW II were hostile: The US landings in Morocco against French resistance. I feel this statement gr

by rualca 5y ago

> Hah. The first encounters between the French and the US in WW II were hostile: The US landings in Morocco against French resistance. I feel this statement grossly misrepresents history. French north Africa was controlled by Vichy France, which was Nazi Germany's puppet regime and did not represented french sentiment or opinion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Torch https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Torch

Bayart 5y ago
Vichy did represent French sentiment at the beginning. Things changed with time.
- rualca 5y ago
  > Vichy did represent French sentiment at the beginning. No, not really. The Vichy regime was the dictatorship puppet regime imposed onto the remaining french territory after the third republic was dissolved, and enacted policies imposed by Nazi germany such as rounding up Jews to hand them over to them. It grossly misrepresents the french sentiment of the time to even suggest that France suddenly had a change in heart and decided to not only accept Nazi Germany as it's political and ideological compass but also jump enthusiastically and head-on onto the Holocaust to the point of eclipsing even Franco's Spain.
  - Bayart 5y ago
    You're mixing up things, misconstruing what I said and ignoring the timeline. The national sentiment in June 1940 when Pétain formed the last government of the 3rd Republic was _very_ pro-Pétain and the country as a whole was pro-armistice. The Vichy regime was formed on the basis of popular support to lead a policy that, if it didn't gather the unconditional support of everyone, didn't alarm many. You have to keep in mind the Parliamentarian 3rd Republic was seen as having failed miserably. All the while 1.8 French men were held as PoWs in Germany and the government was expected to gain them back. Until mid-1941 pro-Vichy sentiment remained high and the Resistance movement was at best paltry, with people like de Gaulle seen as trouble makers. Germany invaded the USSR on the on June 22, prompting the Communists in France to enter the Resistance. At the same time the systemic plunder of the French economy, with the help of Vichy, was coming into fruition and starting to be felt. Real antisemitic and repression policies started being implemented in the second half of 1941. The Vel d'Hiv Roundup happened in mid-1942. In June 22 1942 French workers were incentivised to leave France to work in Germany. Two months later, on August 22 work conscription was instituted and accelerated in late 42 / early 43 while the Germans invaded Southern France, up 'til now nominally in the hands of the French government. From _that_ moment national sentiment truly turned, Vichy lost all the good will it still had, the French lost all illusions that Pétain was anything more than a mop and large amounts of youths trying to dodge slave work in Germany entered the Resistance. I think you « grossly misrepresent » French sentiment much more than I do.
  - TMWNN 5y ago
    As Bayart said, you are mistaken. Although de Gaulle's forces claimed that the Vichy regime was illegitimate, it it very difficult to justify the claim based on either popular support (Vichy and Petain almost certainly had the support of the majority of French at the surrender of the Third Republic, and for years afterward) or diplomatic recognition (Vichy had recognition from dozens of countries, including the US and Canada). Conversely, de Gaulle himself had difficulty in justifying his claim that he was legally acting on behalf of the Third Republic.
kevinmchugh 5y ago
Thanks. My initial read of the other comment was that the US was fighting the French Resistance, when it was the opposite.

by rualca 5y ago

Bayart 5y ago

Vichy did represent French sentiment at the beginning. Things changed with time.

rualca 5y ago
> Vichy did represent French sentiment at the beginning. No, not really. The Vichy regime was the dictatorship puppet regime imposed onto the remaining french territory after the third republic was dissolved, and enacted policies imposed by Nazi germany such as rounding up Jews to hand them over to them. It grossly misrepresents the french sentiment of the time to even suggest that France suddenly had a change in heart and decided to not only accept Nazi Germany as it's political and ideological compass but also jump enthusiastically and head-on onto the Holocaust to the point of eclipsing even Franco's Spain.
- Bayart 5y ago
  You're mixing up things, misconstruing what I said and ignoring the timeline. The national sentiment in June 1940 when Pétain formed the last government of the 3rd Republic was _very_ pro-Pétain and the country as a whole was pro-armistice. The Vichy regime was formed on the basis of popular support to lead a policy that, if it didn't gather the unconditional support of everyone, didn't alarm many. You have to keep in mind the Parliamentarian 3rd Republic was seen as having failed miserably. All the while 1.8 French men were held as PoWs in Germany and the government was expected to gain them back. Until mid-1941 pro-Vichy sentiment remained high and the Resistance movement was at best paltry, with people like de Gaulle seen as trouble makers. Germany invaded the USSR on the on June 22, prompting the Communists in France to enter the Resistance. At the same time the systemic plunder of the French economy, with the help of Vichy, was coming into fruition and starting to be felt. Real antisemitic and repression policies started being implemented in the second half of 1941. The Vel d'Hiv Roundup happened in mid-1942. In June 22 1942 French workers were incentivised to leave France to work in Germany. Two months later, on August 22 work conscription was instituted and accelerated in late 42 / early 43 while the Germans invaded Southern France, up 'til now nominally in the hands of the French government. From _that_ moment national sentiment truly turned, Vichy lost all the good will it still had, the French lost all illusions that Pétain was anything more than a mop and large amounts of youths trying to dodge slave work in Germany entered the Resistance. I think you « grossly misrepresent » French sentiment much more than I do.
- TMWNN 5y ago
  As Bayart said, you are mistaken. Although de Gaulle's forces claimed that the Vichy regime was illegitimate, it it very difficult to justify the claim based on either popular support (Vichy and Petain almost certainly had the support of the majority of French at the surrender of the Third Republic, and for years afterward) or diplomatic recognition (Vichy had recognition from dozens of countries, including the US and Canada). Conversely, de Gaulle himself had difficulty in justifying his claim that he was legally acting on behalf of the Third Republic.

kevinmchugh 5y ago

Thanks. My initial read of the other comment was that the US was fighting the French Resistance, when it was the opposite.