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I had a friend who was wanting to get a master's degree in poetry, and it cost about 45k a year, back in early 2000s. I strongly advised against it, my friend d

I had a friend who was wanting to get a master's degree in poetry, and it cost about 45k a year, back in early 2000s. I strongly advised against it, my friend did not take well to my advice. Hope it all turned out well. I have no problem with people getting degrees in the arts. My spouse has a Master's in fine arts, from a university in Europe. But she didn't acquire any debt from that degree, while I did in the US with my CS Master's. But living with enormous debt--debt that cannot be discharged in bankruptcy (in the US)--is such a burden, and the degree itself may really not offer that much in terms of job prospects (though we shouldn't discount the value of humanities degrees--turns out they often do pretty well in life). It is hard to see why a poetry program should cost so much.

MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago
That said about federal student loans, it is a low interest unsecured type of debt. At a bank an unsecured loan is at least 11-16% depending on the amount. So if you as a student do have some of that debt leftover, it is much smarter to use that toward a car down payment or a deposit on an apartment. I feel like most college kids don't have even the slightest grasp on budgeting and how all transactions affect the accounting equation honestly.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
tonfreed 5y ago
I think the debt problem is one of a predatory nature. I love music and history, but I came from a family that pretty much only got by because of welfare. I didn't have the time or money to waste getting a degree in something that had zero job prospects after school. You show a $50k a year degree to an 18 year old from a more middle to upper middle class family, though, and they're not going to understand how much money that actually is. They're going to see one big party that they don't need to pay for until they're done. I also remember when I was in high school, all the boomer teachers and parents were saying university is a gateway to easy money after. We were sold something that hasn't held true, and I think a lot of people are very bitter about that.
- websites2022 5y ago
  > We were sold something that hasn't held true, and I think a lot of people are very bitter about that. In what way has it not held true? 33% of Americans have at least a four year degree and earn an average of $1m more than their peers without over their lifetimes. By all measures, university is a gateway to easy money after. So long as you finish.
  - skewart 5y ago
    I bet Ferrari owners earn even more than that compared to people without Ferraris. I don’t think that means we should tell young people to take out loans to buy a Ferrari because it’s a ticket to easy money. When the only kids going to college were either rich or highly motivated then having a degree made you stand out and could open doors. When everyone gets a degree it doesn’t make you stand out any more. Instead, not having a degree makes you look bad. (And unlike high school, which anyone can attend for free, most kids in the US need to take on a lot of debt just so the don’t get left behind.)
    - websites2022 5y ago
      >When everyone gets a degree it doesn’t make you stand out any more. Then let’s talk when we get closer to everyone having a degree. 33% is not everyone and “a degree” is not a single product that can be compared 1:1 across each instance. > most kids in the US need to take on a lot of debt just so the don’t get left behind The average student loan debt for undergraduate degrees is $28,950. This is not “a lot of debt.” According to the valuation analysts at Kelley Blue Book, the estimated average transaction price for a light vehicle in the United States was $37,876 in 2020. That is to say, on average, students are taking on the debt for a 4 year education, that sets them up on average to earn a million dollars more in their lifetime than their peers who don’t, for less than the average transaction price for a light vehicle — an asset that depreciates ~20% when you take it off the lot. And you get the keep the credentials a lot longer.
jsbdk 5y ago
On the other hand, degrees are "free" in Europe, and I don't want my tax money spent on people doing masters degrees on "poetry". The fact that you have to pay for your degree out of pocket may mean that more people will choose to do degrees that are worth something, which is a great thing for society overall. Having said that the prices of degrees in the US are outrageous. A middle ground should be found.
- andrew_eit 5y ago
  How bleak are our prospects as a civilisation when we reduce the value of a higher education in the arts, such as literature, to something as rudimentary as a waste of tax money. It is short sighted to think that since a "degree in poetry" won't yield a substantial dollar-value return economically, that it therefore has no value. Especially when several of recent history's social and political movements were in fact born of literature, writing and the kind of written articulation that characterises such academic fields. And to your point about "free" education in Europe. The act of decoupling the pursuit of education and knowledge, from a high financial cost, is a crucial mechanism to ensure that institutions retain the freedom to pursue knowledge for its own sake, and to not be (solely) steered by the industrial interests of the status quo.
  - jsbdk 5y ago
    That's a very romantic view of society, but a graduate on poetry will most likely spend the rest of her days writing copy for a marketing agency, selling burgers, or cleaning latrines. And that's ignoring the fact that you really don't need to study "poetry" for four years to be able to write poems.
ydlr 5y ago
I did my MFA in poetry in the US. Tuition and living expenses were completely covered by fellowships and a TA position. I think this is the norm. While expensive on paper, no one really pays that. Most programs are not predatory like those described in article.
- jonnycomputer 5y ago
  I certainly hope that was the case for her.
Finnucane 5y ago
MFA programs in creative writing are the most worthless. In my experience as an editor, writers with MFAs were not as a class better than those without. At least with some graduate programs—in areas of actually value—you might qualify for an RA or TA subsidy. But it’s not worth paying full freight.

MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago

That said about federal student loans, it is a low interest unsecured type of debt. At a bank an unsecured loan is at least 11-16% depending on the amount. So if you as a student do have some of that debt leftover, it is much smarter to use that toward a car down payment or a deposit on an apartment. I feel like most college kids don't have even the slightest grasp on budgeting and how all transactions affect the accounting equation honestly.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

tonfreed 5y ago

I think the debt problem is one of a predatory nature. I love music and history, but I came from a family that pretty much only got by because of welfare. I didn't have the time or money to waste getting a degree in something that had zero job prospects after school. You show a $50k a year degree to an 18 year old from a more middle to upper middle class family, though, and they're not going to understand how much money that actually is. They're going to see one big party that they don't need to pay for until they're done. I also remember when I was in high school, all the boomer teachers and parents were saying university is a gateway to easy money after. We were sold something that hasn't held true, and I think a lot of people are very bitter about that.

websites2022 5y ago
> We were sold something that hasn't held true, and I think a lot of people are very bitter about that. In what way has it not held true? 33% of Americans have at least a four year degree and earn an average of $1m more than their peers without over their lifetimes. By all measures, university is a gateway to easy money after. So long as you finish.
- skewart 5y ago
  I bet Ferrari owners earn even more than that compared to people without Ferraris. I don’t think that means we should tell young people to take out loans to buy a Ferrari because it’s a ticket to easy money. When the only kids going to college were either rich or highly motivated then having a degree made you stand out and could open doors. When everyone gets a degree it doesn’t make you stand out any more. Instead, not having a degree makes you look bad. (And unlike high school, which anyone can attend for free, most kids in the US need to take on a lot of debt just so the don’t get left behind.)
  - websites2022 5y ago
    >When everyone gets a degree it doesn’t make you stand out any more. Then let’s talk when we get closer to everyone having a degree. 33% is not everyone and “a degree” is not a single product that can be compared 1:1 across each instance. > most kids in the US need to take on a lot of debt just so the don’t get left behind The average student loan debt for undergraduate degrees is $28,950. This is not “a lot of debt.” According to the valuation analysts at Kelley Blue Book, the estimated average transaction price for a light vehicle in the United States was $37,876 in 2020. That is to say, on average, students are taking on the debt for a 4 year education, that sets them up on average to earn a million dollars more in their lifetime than their peers who don’t, for less than the average transaction price for a light vehicle — an asset that depreciates ~20% when you take it off the lot. And you get the keep the credentials a lot longer.

jsbdk 5y ago

On the other hand, degrees are "free" in Europe, and I don't want my tax money spent on people doing masters degrees on "poetry". The fact that you have to pay for your degree out of pocket may mean that more people will choose to do degrees that are worth something, which is a great thing for society overall. Having said that the prices of degrees in the US are outrageous. A middle ground should be found.

andrew_eit 5y ago
How bleak are our prospects as a civilisation when we reduce the value of a higher education in the arts, such as literature, to something as rudimentary as a waste of tax money. It is short sighted to think that since a "degree in poetry" won't yield a substantial dollar-value return economically, that it therefore has no value. Especially when several of recent history's social and political movements were in fact born of literature, writing and the kind of written articulation that characterises such academic fields. And to your point about "free" education in Europe. The act of decoupling the pursuit of education and knowledge, from a high financial cost, is a crucial mechanism to ensure that institutions retain the freedom to pursue knowledge for its own sake, and to not be (solely) steered by the industrial interests of the status quo.
- jsbdk 5y ago
  That's a very romantic view of society, but a graduate on poetry will most likely spend the rest of her days writing copy for a marketing agency, selling burgers, or cleaning latrines. And that's ignoring the fact that you really don't need to study "poetry" for four years to be able to write poems.

ydlr 5y ago

I did my MFA in poetry in the US. Tuition and living expenses were completely covered by fellowships and a TA position. I think this is the norm. While expensive on paper, no one really pays that. Most programs are not predatory like those described in article.

jonnycomputer 5y ago
I certainly hope that was the case for her.

Finnucane 5y ago

MFA programs in creative writing are the most worthless. In my experience as an editor, writers with MFAs were not as a class better than those without. At least with some graduate programs—in areas of actually value—you might qualify for an RA or TA subsidy. But it’s not worth paying full freight.