6 ms·

is taxation as fucked up in other countries as it is in the usa? rules set up to encourage people to have to pay some shady third party to know how much they ow

is taxation as fucked up in other countries as it is in the usa? rules set up to encourage people to have to pay some shady third party to know how much they owe (even though the irs could tell them directly).

Zizizizz 5y ago
Expat living in the UK, I don't do anything for taxes here, I still have to file through free file in the US each year. It's a right pain.
- ashtonkem 5y ago
  The fact that the US demands you file taxes as an expat is a wee bit ironic if you consider the founding myths of the United States.
yladiz 5y ago
In Germany a lot of people don't need to file taxes. If you have a job that takes taxes out automatically, like an office job, you aren't obligated to files taxes, but if you freelance or have some additional income that wouldn't be taxed then you are obligated to file. As far as I understand the rule of thumb is if all of your employers deduct taxes you don't need to file. I moved here from the USA and it feels simpler for the average person. You don't declare how many withholdings you get (I always used 0 so I could get some money at the end of the year), you just tell your employer your tax class and everything else is handled, and any refund is based on if you paid too many taxes somehow (there are some situations where you might have overpaid taxes inadvertently, like if you have a change in income part way through the year, and if this is the case when you file the return they analyze your income data and give you a refund).
OJFord 5y ago
No, in the UK the majority of people don't need to 'do taxes' at all. ('Normal' income tax is taken through 'Pay As You Earn' by employer's payroll, you only ever receive net pay; capital gains, dividends, 'innovation', etc. have tax free thresholds that mean you don't have to worry about it until (if) it's big. And then you can just file it online (or paper) directly with HMRC (IRS equivalent), or pay a tax advisor if you want of course, but that's certainly exception not norm.)
ashtonkem 5y ago
My impression is that most countries either withhold taxes correctly, or send you a bill at the year end without you having to file, unless if you have a complex setup like owning a business.
Lionga 5y ago
In Germany it is a clusterfuck of special rules and millions of forms and extra deductions. Much easier in Romania, if you have only employment income nothing to do. For capital gains or other incomes basically a single form, only 10% flat taxes so you know what you owe.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
fridif 5y ago
Taxes are not hard. You enter in your income and see if you can get any deductions. Be an adult.
- Telemakhos 5y ago
  Taxes are not hard for people with one job and one SSN and no schedule Ks filing in one place. Last year I had four TIN/EIN/SSNs, filing in up to three states, depending on the TIN/EIN/SSN, along with a federal return. That meant a dozen different filings. Hiring an accountant was worth it for me. On the other hand, when I was young, I did my own taxes by hand on paper, and it was easy: they are easy if you just have a W2 and maybe some 1099s. But I was not an adult then, nor did I have adult finances.
  - fridif 5y ago
    Does it stand to reason that the average person does not have multiple business entities in multiple locations? You are getting scammed by the government, who have made it burdensome to report all of this income. A tax professional or a service like Intuit are trying to help here. If the government wanted to make this process easier for the small percentage of people like you, they would have done so, but they haven't, because they have weak volition and desire for creativity.
    - yladiz 5y ago
      Does it stand to reason that the average person needs to actually file taxes if the government knows the information necessary to calculate a tax refund or bill anyway?
      - fridif 5y ago
        How would the government know what deductions you are applying for before you apply for them?
        yladiz 5y ago
Snild 5y ago
Nope. Here in Sweden, your employer reports your pay to the tax authorities, and deducts your tax from every paycheck. Banks report your capital gains and losses. In March or April, everyone gets sent their pre-filled tax form for the previous year. You can change it as needed, for example adding income from a side hustle, or making deductions -- though those are fewer and less complicated than the US from what I understand. Many common deductions (e.g. for mortgage interest) will be pre-filled too. Most people will not need to change anything, and so can approve the pre-filled form through text message or digital signature (or phone robot for old people iirc). If you do need to make changes, it can be (but doesn't have to be) done online without too much trouble. Don't get me wrong, it's not always trivial, but it seems significantly more pleasant than what I hear about the US system. And, again, the vast majority of people just have to send a text message some time in March or April.
- iandanforth 5y ago
  Sweden has the mortgage interest deduction too? I wonder how wide spread that is. I thought that was a US financing lobby invention sold under the guise of the "American Dream of Home Ownership."
  - Snild 5y ago
    My understanding (based on no research at all) is that it was introduced here for a similar reason: "homeownership is good". And it probably is. But I don't know if the deduction helps with that. People buy what they can afford, so the "discount" is probably consumed by higher interest rates and inflated prices. It can also be argued that it's a form of regressive taxation: the rich are eligible for bigger mortgages, and therefore have more to gain from the policy. Personally, I would like to see it removed. Any serious attempt to do that it's probably political suicide, though, since it would have a noticeable impact on many people's finances. And who knows how it would affect the housing market. Maybe if it was done gradually over many years.
    - unilynx 5y ago
      The Netherlands have been passing various restrictions on mortgage interest reductions over the past few years. Many are phased in over 30 years. With the current interest rates it's an ideal time to pass any tax changes anyway - they won't hit new mortgages nearly as hard as 10 years ago, and the housing prices can use some downward pressure anyway.
ohgodplsno 5y ago
France, my employer reports how much they pay me to the state. I tell the state how much I made, in a pre-filled form of everything they know. That includes salaries, donations, as well as the default 10% tax write-off. I can of course adjust this form. I can also tell the state how much I expect to make this year, and the state will tell my employer to directly deposit a specific percentage of my salary directly for taxes to the state. When doing my tax declaration, if anything has changed, it gets all settled in September. If I didn't pay enough yet, I'll be asked to finish paying it (ex: this year, where my estimation of what I'd make was too low, and I'll owe 1000€ by September). If I paid too much, I'll be reimbursed (or it'll be paid in advance for next year.) All in all, revenue tax takes about 5 minutes a year for me to check that what they have is correct (since I am salaried, which is the easy path), and maybe 5 more minutes to adjust my monthly tax rate.
cesarb 5y ago
Brazilian here. For us, there is no third party; we must use the tax filing software from Receita Federal (our IRS), available for free on the website (Java version, for desktops), within the website itself (web version), or the smartphone app. This software has been available since the 90s; initially a DOS-only application, later a Windows-only application, then a pair of the Windows-only application and the Java application, then the Windows-only application was dropped in favor of the Java application, and later came the web and smartphone versions. For a while, we could also use the older paper forms, but that hasn't been an option for over a decade.

Zizizizz 5y ago

Expat living in the UK, I don't do anything for taxes here, I still have to file through free file in the US each year. It's a right pain.

ashtonkem 5y ago
The fact that the US demands you file taxes as an expat is a wee bit ironic if you consider the founding myths of the United States.

yladiz 5y ago

In Germany a lot of people don't need to file taxes. If you have a job that takes taxes out automatically, like an office job, you aren't obligated to files taxes, but if you freelance or have some additional income that wouldn't be taxed then you are obligated to file. As far as I understand the rule of thumb is if all of your employers deduct taxes you don't need to file. I moved here from the USA and it feels simpler for the average person. You don't declare how many withholdings you get (I always used 0 so I could get some money at the end of the year), you just tell your employer your tax class and everything else is handled, and any refund is based on if you paid too many taxes somehow (there are some situations where you might have overpaid taxes inadvertently, like if you have a change in income part way through the year, and if this is the case when you file the return they analyze your income data and give you a refund).

OJFord 5y ago

No, in the UK the majority of people don't need to 'do taxes' at all. ('Normal' income tax is taken through 'Pay As You Earn' by employer's payroll, you only ever receive net pay; capital gains, dividends, 'innovation', etc. have tax free thresholds that mean you don't have to worry about it until (if) it's big. And then you can just file it online (or paper) directly with HMRC (IRS equivalent), or pay a tax advisor if you want of course, but that's certainly exception not norm.)

ashtonkem 5y ago

My impression is that most countries either withhold taxes correctly, or send you a bill at the year end without you having to file, unless if you have a complex setup like owning a business.

Lionga 5y ago

In Germany it is a clusterfuck of special rules and millions of forms and extra deductions. Much easier in Romania, if you have only employment income nothing to do. For capital gains or other incomes basically a single form, only 10% flat taxes so you know what you owe.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

fridif 5y ago

Taxes are not hard. You enter in your income and see if you can get any deductions. Be an adult.

Telemakhos 5y ago
Taxes are not hard for people with one job and one SSN and no schedule Ks filing in one place. Last year I had four TIN/EIN/SSNs, filing in up to three states, depending on the TIN/EIN/SSN, along with a federal return. That meant a dozen different filings. Hiring an accountant was worth it for me. On the other hand, when I was young, I did my own taxes by hand on paper, and it was easy: they are easy if you just have a W2 and maybe some 1099s. But I was not an adult then, nor did I have adult finances.
- fridif 5y ago
  Does it stand to reason that the average person does not have multiple business entities in multiple locations? You are getting scammed by the government, who have made it burdensome to report all of this income. A tax professional or a service like Intuit are trying to help here. If the government wanted to make this process easier for the small percentage of people like you, they would have done so, but they haven't, because they have weak volition and desire for creativity.
  - yladiz 5y ago
    Does it stand to reason that the average person needs to actually file taxes if the government knows the information necessary to calculate a tax refund or bill anyway?
    - fridif 5y ago
      How would the government know what deductions you are applying for before you apply for them?
      - yladiz 5y ago

Snild 5y ago

Nope. Here in Sweden, your employer reports your pay to the tax authorities, and deducts your tax from every paycheck. Banks report your capital gains and losses. In March or April, everyone gets sent their pre-filled tax form for the previous year. You can change it as needed, for example adding income from a side hustle, or making deductions -- though those are fewer and less complicated than the US from what I understand. Many common deductions (e.g. for mortgage interest) will be pre-filled too. Most people will not need to change anything, and so can approve the pre-filled form through text message or digital signature (or phone robot for old people iirc). If you do need to make changes, it can be (but doesn't have to be) done online without too much trouble. Don't get me wrong, it's not always trivial, but it seems significantly more pleasant than what I hear about the US system. And, again, the vast majority of people just have to send a text message some time in March or April.

iandanforth 5y ago
Sweden has the mortgage interest deduction too? I wonder how wide spread that is. I thought that was a US financing lobby invention sold under the guise of the "American Dream of Home Ownership."
- Snild 5y ago
  My understanding (based on no research at all) is that it was introduced here for a similar reason: "homeownership is good". And it probably is. But I don't know if the deduction helps with that. People buy what they can afford, so the "discount" is probably consumed by higher interest rates and inflated prices. It can also be argued that it's a form of regressive taxation: the rich are eligible for bigger mortgages, and therefore have more to gain from the policy. Personally, I would like to see it removed. Any serious attempt to do that it's probably political suicide, though, since it would have a noticeable impact on many people's finances. And who knows how it would affect the housing market. Maybe if it was done gradually over many years.
  - unilynx 5y ago
    The Netherlands have been passing various restrictions on mortgage interest reductions over the past few years. Many are phased in over 30 years. With the current interest rates it's an ideal time to pass any tax changes anyway - they won't hit new mortgages nearly as hard as 10 years ago, and the housing prices can use some downward pressure anyway.

ohgodplsno 5y ago

France, my employer reports how much they pay me to the state. I tell the state how much I made, in a pre-filled form of everything they know. That includes salaries, donations, as well as the default 10% tax write-off. I can of course adjust this form. I can also tell the state how much I expect to make this year, and the state will tell my employer to directly deposit a specific percentage of my salary directly for taxes to the state. When doing my tax declaration, if anything has changed, it gets all settled in September. If I didn't pay enough yet, I'll be asked to finish paying it (ex: this year, where my estimation of what I'd make was too low, and I'll owe 1000€ by September). If I paid too much, I'll be reimbursed (or it'll be paid in advance for next year.) All in all, revenue tax takes about 5 minutes a year for me to check that what they have is correct (since I am salaried, which is the easy path), and maybe 5 more minutes to adjust my monthly tax rate.

cesarb 5y ago

Brazilian here. For us, there is no third party; we must use the tax filing software from Receita Federal (our IRS), available for free on the website (Java version, for desktops), within the website itself (web version), or the smartphone app. This software has been available since the 90s; initially a DOS-only application, later a Windows-only application, then a pair of the Windows-only application and the Java application, then the Windows-only application was dropped in favor of the Java application, and later came the web and smartphone versions. For a while, we could also use the older paper forms, but that hasn't been an option for over a decade.