5 ms·

I'm not even close to convinced by your response. Relying on the public-private divide as the sole basis for your retort is weak. You also assert that the perso

I'm not even close to convinced by your response. Relying on the public-private divide as the sole basis for your retort is weak. You also assert that the person is pushing a personal narrative, but I suggest you're doing the same. There's an argument that private corporations that are involved in dissemination of information (search engines and social media) should respect principles of freedom of speech as a democratic principle, regardless of constitutional mandate. Suppose the government outsources welfare eligibility decision-making to a private company. Does this mean traditional notions of fairness we would expect from such an decision-maker do not apply, because they are a private company?

pronlover723 5y ago
So then, I should be able to paint your house and car with whatever messages "I" want and you should not be allowed to erase them. Is that the argument you're making?
- FeepingCreature 5y ago
  If "my" house is actually a meeting place for half the country, or even just half the city, and I've decided almost anyone can paint on the walls, I should not be able to say that one specific person cannot paint on the walls because, for instance, I don't like what party they vote for. Any restriction on wallpainting in that space must be independent of the content of the message. If I wanted to limit that message, I should have to go through the proper democratic circles, ie. pass a city ordnance. This is the same logic that prevents me from saying that in this meeting hall, gay people are not allowed entry.
  - mjthompson 5y ago
    I don't think I need to respond - you've encapsulated what I would have said perfectly.
  - joshuamorton 5y ago
    You've conflated a few things here. Are we banning people or messages? You've said that bans need to be content neutral, but also that they can't be based on the individual doing the painting. This would mean that, for example porn would need to be acceptable. Or advertisements, but it seems reasonable for the owner to ban both of those things in pursuit of their desired aesthetic. The actual case seems to be that anyone can paint anything except certain banned things. But any person can still paint other unbanned things. That's different than banning particular people. In other words, if the republicans are allowed to discuss everything except vaccine conspiracies, you aren't discriminating against republicans, so this analogy about banning individuals doesn't work. And of course you might ban a particular individual from the premises for repeatedly breaking those rules. All of this seems perfectly reasonable, and indeed I know real-world spaces that operate more or less like this.
    - FeepingCreature 5y ago
      > This would mean that, for example porn would need to be acceptable. Or advertisements, but it seems reasonable for the owner to ban both of those things in pursuit of their desired aesthetic. Yes, I stand by this. If it's legal to have porn on your house wall, it should be legal for people to paint porn on your communal wall. Again, the solution to this should be a city ordnance. The problem to me is not restrictions but accountability. > The actual case seems to be that anyone can paint anything except certain banned things. But any person can still paint other unbanned things. This seems akin to saying that the theocracy does not discriminate against gay men, because they can marry women just like hetero men can.
      - joshuamorton 5y ago
        > Yes, I stand by this. If it's legal to have porn on your house wall, it should be legal for people to paint porn on your communal wall Why? Why is it that if I allow people to paint things, I lose the right to moderate those things? Like it's still my property, right? What causes me to forfeit my property rights? Or to ask a perhaps different question, could I close the venue entirely? What if I later reopened it with a list of allowed people and you could only enter if you were on the list? Do I still forfeit those rights? How big does the list have to be for it to be suitably public again? > This seems akin to saying that the theocracy does not discriminate against gay men, because they can marry women just like hetero men can. You're going to have to explain this better. Because in practice banning gay men from marrying men prevents them from getting married at all. Preventing anyone from painting porn doesn't prevent an artist from painting not-porn. I might be more willing to agree if, for example, it was the government blanket banning porn. But we're not talking about that, were talking about one dude with one popular artists venue banning pornographic art being painted. It's not different than if I disallowed the sale of pornography in my art gallery. Keep in mind, today, in the united states no priest is compelled to officiate a same sex wedding. The state recognizes them, but you or I don't have to.
  - thegrimmest 5y ago
    I disagree wholeheartedly. If your front yard happens to become a popular meeting space for the town, it doesn't change your rights to your yard. You can still ask anyone to leave for any reason. Google literally built all their infrastructure from the ground-up. It's theirs in the most direct sense of the word, and we should take an attitude of humble gratitude for their ongoing contributions to our wellbeing, rather then continue our attempts to punish them for their success.
    - FeepingCreature 5y ago
      If you permit your front yard to become a popular meeting space for the town, I think it does change your rights to your yard. Ownership implies responsibility.
      - thegrimmest 5y ago
        No, ownership is a fixed contract specifying property rights. It's tyrannical to change this contract without the consent of the rights holder.
nostoc 5y ago
That analogy wobbly at best, if not downright dishonest. Google is not hosting your public content on behalf of any government.
- mjthompson 5y ago
  The public/private divide is a well-known conundrum. And the analogy I gave is a practical example of that, one that has actually faced several nations. I note you've offered no basis for it being 'dishonest', either, which is unfair. Be careful before making statements like that. The point is, you look at the substance of what is being done or controlled, not the status of the actor as a private or public entity. That is what the analogy is used to explain. The substance of what is being done, here, is regulation of communication between individuals over a communication platform. Downplaying it as 'not hosting public content' is inaccurate or at least of no moment. What's public content mean anyway? If a significant amount of private communication goes through privately owned channels, it is reasonable that the private companies operating those channels respect democratic norms. It's unreasonable to dismiss any criticism as 'they are a private company', as that's beside the point.
- oarsinsync 5y ago
  > Google is not hosting your public content on behalf of any government. I think that line becomes a bit more blurry if you're a student using your school-issued Google account.
rebuilder 5y ago
I’m definitely on the side of the argument that says power is power, and private companies can do just as much harm as governments can. However, there’s a difference between gov’t censorship and censorship by private companies like we’re talking about here. It’s the difference between not allowing the government to say what you can publish and requiring a company to publish whatever you want.

pronlover723 5y ago

So then, I should be able to paint your house and car with whatever messages "I" want and you should not be allowed to erase them. Is that the argument you're making?

FeepingCreature 5y ago
If "my" house is actually a meeting place for half the country, or even just half the city, and I've decided almost anyone can paint on the walls, I should not be able to say that one specific person cannot paint on the walls because, for instance, I don't like what party they vote for. Any restriction on wallpainting in that space must be independent of the content of the message. If I wanted to limit that message, I should have to go through the proper democratic circles, ie. pass a city ordnance. This is the same logic that prevents me from saying that in this meeting hall, gay people are not allowed entry.
- mjthompson 5y ago
  I don't think I need to respond - you've encapsulated what I would have said perfectly.
- joshuamorton 5y ago
  You've conflated a few things here. Are we banning people or messages? You've said that bans need to be content neutral, but also that they can't be based on the individual doing the painting. This would mean that, for example porn would need to be acceptable. Or advertisements, but it seems reasonable for the owner to ban both of those things in pursuit of their desired aesthetic. The actual case seems to be that anyone can paint anything except certain banned things. But any person can still paint other unbanned things. That's different than banning particular people. In other words, if the republicans are allowed to discuss everything except vaccine conspiracies, you aren't discriminating against republicans, so this analogy about banning individuals doesn't work. And of course you might ban a particular individual from the premises for repeatedly breaking those rules. All of this seems perfectly reasonable, and indeed I know real-world spaces that operate more or less like this.
  - FeepingCreature 5y ago
    > This would mean that, for example porn would need to be acceptable. Or advertisements, but it seems reasonable for the owner to ban both of those things in pursuit of their desired aesthetic. Yes, I stand by this. If it's legal to have porn on your house wall, it should be legal for people to paint porn on your communal wall. Again, the solution to this should be a city ordnance. The problem to me is not restrictions but accountability. > The actual case seems to be that anyone can paint anything except certain banned things. But any person can still paint other unbanned things. This seems akin to saying that the theocracy does not discriminate against gay men, because they can marry women just like hetero men can.
    - joshuamorton 5y ago
      > Yes, I stand by this. If it's legal to have porn on your house wall, it should be legal for people to paint porn on your communal wall Why? Why is it that if I allow people to paint things, I lose the right to moderate those things? Like it's still my property, right? What causes me to forfeit my property rights? Or to ask a perhaps different question, could I close the venue entirely? What if I later reopened it with a list of allowed people and you could only enter if you were on the list? Do I still forfeit those rights? How big does the list have to be for it to be suitably public again? > This seems akin to saying that the theocracy does not discriminate against gay men, because they can marry women just like hetero men can. You're going to have to explain this better. Because in practice banning gay men from marrying men prevents them from getting married at all. Preventing anyone from painting porn doesn't prevent an artist from painting not-porn. I might be more willing to agree if, for example, it was the government blanket banning porn. But we're not talking about that, were talking about one dude with one popular artists venue banning pornographic art being painted. It's not different than if I disallowed the sale of pornography in my art gallery. Keep in mind, today, in the united states no priest is compelled to officiate a same sex wedding. The state recognizes them, but you or I don't have to.
- thegrimmest 5y ago
  I disagree wholeheartedly. If your front yard happens to become a popular meeting space for the town, it doesn't change your rights to your yard. You can still ask anyone to leave for any reason. Google literally built all their infrastructure from the ground-up. It's theirs in the most direct sense of the word, and we should take an attitude of humble gratitude for their ongoing contributions to our wellbeing, rather then continue our attempts to punish them for their success.
  - FeepingCreature 5y ago
    If you permit your front yard to become a popular meeting space for the town, I think it does change your rights to your yard. Ownership implies responsibility.
    - thegrimmest 5y ago
      No, ownership is a fixed contract specifying property rights. It's tyrannical to change this contract without the consent of the rights holder.

nostoc 5y ago

That analogy wobbly at best, if not downright dishonest. Google is not hosting your public content on behalf of any government.

mjthompson 5y ago
The public/private divide is a well-known conundrum. And the analogy I gave is a practical example of that, one that has actually faced several nations. I note you've offered no basis for it being 'dishonest', either, which is unfair. Be careful before making statements like that. The point is, you look at the substance of what is being done or controlled, not the status of the actor as a private or public entity. That is what the analogy is used to explain. The substance of what is being done, here, is regulation of communication between individuals over a communication platform. Downplaying it as 'not hosting public content' is inaccurate or at least of no moment. What's public content mean anyway? If a significant amount of private communication goes through privately owned channels, it is reasonable that the private companies operating those channels respect democratic norms. It's unreasonable to dismiss any criticism as 'they are a private company', as that's beside the point.
oarsinsync 5y ago
> Google is not hosting your public content on behalf of any government. I think that line becomes a bit more blurry if you're a student using your school-issued Google account.

rebuilder 5y ago

I’m definitely on the side of the argument that says power is power, and private companies can do just as much harm as governments can. However, there’s a difference between gov’t censorship and censorship by private companies like we’re talking about here. It’s the difference between not allowing the government to say what you can publish and requiring a company to publish whatever you want.