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There is a wee bit of a difference between a corporation making more money, and a human being being able to afford rent and food. That’s why I point out how fuc

There is a wee bit of a difference between a corporation making more money, and a human being being able to afford rent and food. That’s why I point out how fucked up it is that we are harsh towards people and treat corporations with kid gloves. That’s why they’re not equivalent; if the store can’t charge more money (up until a point) it cuts into their profits. If a human can’t make enough money with their labor, they starve. Hopefully you can understand why these are morally dissimilar.

imgabe 5y ago
If the store is a small business, the profits are what the owner uses to afford rent and food. So, how is that morally dissimilar? "Corporations" are just groups of people. They are not some amorphous, abstract thing that just preys on helpless humans. > If a human can’t make enough money with their labor, they starve. There is absolutely no reason a normal, healthy adult offering 40 hours per week of effort should not be able to produce far more than minimum wage levels of value. If there are not opportunities for them to do that, we should investigate why that is, and provide opportunities for them to create that value. That is better for everyone because there is more valuable work being done. Pretending that a job that only creates $7 per hour of value actually creates $15 or more is just a lie. It's spending a dime to get a nickel and it's ultimately unsustainable. If there's an abundance of jobs paying well above minimum wage, then it doesn't matter what the minimum wage is because people will have better options and the market will determine what price people are willing to accept to do what work. We're already seeing this as people have better options and are refusing to do lower paid work.
- ashtonkem 5y ago
  > If the store is a small business, the profits are what the owner uses to afford rent and food. So, how is that morally dissimilar? The store owner is hoping to turn the labor of their employees into profits for themselves, not mere subsistence. When they pay their employees less than a livable wage, they are in effect demanding that the state subsidize their business in the form of food stamps for their employees. If a company cannot afford to break even while paying livable wages for their employees, then it isn’t a sustainable model and I would like to see it go out of business and have the owners get new jobs themselves; jobs that I would advocate for paying a living wage for. > There is absolutely no reason a normal, healthy adult offering 40 hours per week of effort should not be able to produce far more than minimum wage levels of value. If we agree that an adult should be able to easily make more than that, why would you allow businesses to pay less? > If there's an abundance of jobs paying well above minimum wage, then it doesn't matter what the minimum wage is because people will have better options and the market will determine what price people are willing to accept to do what work. We're already seeing this as people have better options and are refusing to do lower paid work. Your position is incoherent. Raising the minimum wage would hurt workers by taking away jobs, while at the same time nobody is paid the minimum wage because labor is demanding better pay. Which is it?
  - imgabe 5y ago
    > If we agree that an adult should be able to easily make more than that, why would you allow businesses to pay less? Why do you imagine it is up to us to allow or disallow what agreements two adults make between themselves? I expect people to know better than I do what level of income they require to live in a lifestyle they prefer and to figure out how to get that income for themselves. It is not for me to dictate that to them, nor is it for you. > Your position is incoherent. Raising the minimum wage would hurt workers by taking away jobs, while at the same time nobody is paid the minimum wage because labor is demanding better pay. Which is it? Yes, it is incoherent if you so thoroughly misunderstand it. I never said nobody is paid minimum wage. I said that we could make it so nobody was paid minimum wage, if we focused on creating jobs that do more valuable work, instead of agitating to force employers to overpay for less valuable work.
    - ashtonkem 5y ago
      Ah, the whole “minimum wage violates the NAP” angle. Unsurprising, unpersuasive. The idea that some people know better than us and want less money is frankly bizarre. Perhaps that argument carries water for unionization, where workers do often vote against it, but deciding to be paid less because they know better than us? Ridiculous. Such an angle really ignores the extra leverage that large businesses have in poorer areas of America. If a Walmart in the next town drove all your mom & pop shops under because of a combination of low wages and economies of scale, what exactly are you going to do in order to get a better job? Part of the job of the government is to step in and reduce the risk of a coercion in these situations, and the minimum wage is part of that.
      - imgabe 5y ago
        > The idea that some people know better than us and want less money is frankly bizarre. What is frankly bizarre is the belief that wages are just made up values that you can set to whatever you want, that they are completely disconnected from any notion of what value the work provides. Taking a $7 / hour job and demanding that people pay $15 per hour for it, does not magically transform it into creating $15 per hour of value, no matter how much you want it to. It will, however, transform it into a $0 per hour job, because nobody is going to pay $15 for something that is only worth $7. Businesses that fail to make these evil, exploitative things called "profits" cease to exist, and provide no jobs for anyone.

imgabe 5y ago

If the store is a small business, the profits are what the owner uses to afford rent and food. So, how is that morally dissimilar? "Corporations" are just groups of people. They are not some amorphous, abstract thing that just preys on helpless humans. > If a human can’t make enough money with their labor, they starve. There is absolutely no reason a normal, healthy adult offering 40 hours per week of effort should not be able to produce far more than minimum wage levels of value. If there are not opportunities for them to do that, we should investigate why that is, and provide opportunities for them to create that value. That is better for everyone because there is more valuable work being done. Pretending that a job that only creates $7 per hour of value actually creates $15 or more is just a lie. It's spending a dime to get a nickel and it's ultimately unsustainable. If there's an abundance of jobs paying well above minimum wage, then it doesn't matter what the minimum wage is because people will have better options and the market will determine what price people are willing to accept to do what work. We're already seeing this as people have better options and are refusing to do lower paid work.

ashtonkem 5y ago
> If the store is a small business, the profits are what the owner uses to afford rent and food. So, how is that morally dissimilar? The store owner is hoping to turn the labor of their employees into profits for themselves, not mere subsistence. When they pay their employees less than a livable wage, they are in effect demanding that the state subsidize their business in the form of food stamps for their employees. If a company cannot afford to break even while paying livable wages for their employees, then it isn’t a sustainable model and I would like to see it go out of business and have the owners get new jobs themselves; jobs that I would advocate for paying a living wage for. > There is absolutely no reason a normal, healthy adult offering 40 hours per week of effort should not be able to produce far more than minimum wage levels of value. If we agree that an adult should be able to easily make more than that, why would you allow businesses to pay less? > If there's an abundance of jobs paying well above minimum wage, then it doesn't matter what the minimum wage is because people will have better options and the market will determine what price people are willing to accept to do what work. We're already seeing this as people have better options and are refusing to do lower paid work. Your position is incoherent. Raising the minimum wage would hurt workers by taking away jobs, while at the same time nobody is paid the minimum wage because labor is demanding better pay. Which is it?
- imgabe 5y ago
  > If we agree that an adult should be able to easily make more than that, why would you allow businesses to pay less? Why do you imagine it is up to us to allow or disallow what agreements two adults make between themselves? I expect people to know better than I do what level of income they require to live in a lifestyle they prefer and to figure out how to get that income for themselves. It is not for me to dictate that to them, nor is it for you. > Your position is incoherent. Raising the minimum wage would hurt workers by taking away jobs, while at the same time nobody is paid the minimum wage because labor is demanding better pay. Which is it? Yes, it is incoherent if you so thoroughly misunderstand it. I never said nobody is paid minimum wage. I said that we could make it so nobody was paid minimum wage, if we focused on creating jobs that do more valuable work, instead of agitating to force employers to overpay for less valuable work.
  - ashtonkem 5y ago
    Ah, the whole “minimum wage violates the NAP” angle. Unsurprising, unpersuasive. The idea that some people know better than us and want less money is frankly bizarre. Perhaps that argument carries water for unionization, where workers do often vote against it, but deciding to be paid less because they know better than us? Ridiculous. Such an angle really ignores the extra leverage that large businesses have in poorer areas of America. If a Walmart in the next town drove all your mom & pop shops under because of a combination of low wages and economies of scale, what exactly are you going to do in order to get a better job? Part of the job of the government is to step in and reduce the risk of a coercion in these situations, and the minimum wage is part of that.
    - imgabe 5y ago
      > The idea that some people know better than us and want less money is frankly bizarre. What is frankly bizarre is the belief that wages are just made up values that you can set to whatever you want, that they are completely disconnected from any notion of what value the work provides. Taking a $7 / hour job and demanding that people pay $15 per hour for it, does not magically transform it into creating $15 per hour of value, no matter how much you want it to. It will, however, transform it into a $0 per hour job, because nobody is going to pay $15 for something that is only worth $7. Businesses that fail to make these evil, exploitative things called "profits" cease to exist, and provide no jobs for anyone.