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> What's the problem with that? > If you hold strong believes that can be met harshly by the general public, you better be ready for the pushback and think of

> What's the problem with that? > If you hold strong believes that can be met harshly by the general public, you better be ready for the pushback and think of ways to make it accepted. That's how it has been done since ever. The problem is that we're not talking about the general public. Let's say I'm Jewish. Someone on the internet may "doxx" me by finding a group of neonazis and spreading my information there, resulting in me getting threats and hate. The internet seems to specialize in this sort of "doxxing". Why? My theory is that the internet, even if you have a real name for a handle, still distances and dehumanizes others to the point where it's hard to understand the pain you're causing. It's hard to walk up and slap someone because you feel the slap and see them wince in pain. It's easy to DM someone on twitter something far more hurtful than a slap, laugh about it with your tribe of neonazis, and forget about it the next day.

mrtksn 5y ago
I think the solution of your problem is physically securing you against neo nazis instead of hiding your identity. Unless of corse you are writing this from the 1940's and you are in Central Europe. If that's the case, you have a case.
- TheDong 5y ago
  I am writing this on the internet. Physically securing myself does nothing to prevent hatemail, DoSs, and slander. The ideal that "lies can't hurt you, the truth is stronger than lies" has never seemed to actually work. There are countless fictions are far more prominent than facts, and there are countless people who's online experience has been damaged by a small contingent of dedicated attackers. The response to "harboring free speech to the extreme results in neonazis digitally harassing Jews" should not be "okay, fine, lock your door at night, free speech is more important than you being harassed".
  - mrtksn 5y ago
    You get your e-harassment non-anonymously too. If people believe that it’s wrong for you to be subjected to that, those who do this to you will pay for it. Anonymity does have uses but it’s powerful and open to misuse. What we see today on the internet is it’s misuse, mostly.
    - saltminer 5y ago
      >If people believe that it’s wrong for you to be subjected to that, those who do this to you will pay for it. Are you referring to vigilante justice or just trusting the system? (What Americans refer to as the "democratic process" and the "justice system") Because if it's the former, it takes a lot for people to raise a hand against others outside self-defense. If it's the latter...the system usually fails. And saying "yeah well eventually, once there's enough political pressure, it won't fail" isn't any consolation to those who are now having to spend thousands of dollars on a therapist to recover from the trauma they've suffered (because American health insurance typically has crap mental health coverage).
      - mrtksn 5y ago
        Neither. I’m referring to humans desire to be liked and accepted. People are much nicer when their reputation is at stake. Being a total jerk towards you will make them excluded from the society and probably unhireable too.
        saltminer 5y ago
        >People are much nicer when their reputation is at stake. I think a more accurate statement would be "People are much nicer when their money is at stake." And I don't mean "nicer" as in "genuinely better," it's more "I'll paint on a smile and not say anything bad" (just ask a waiter and they'll have plenty of tales where they had to do this for a tip). Today, there are plenty of online hangouts for people with all sorts of ideas. This is great since people can easily form communities around a TV show, hobby, etc, but it also enables flat earthers and anti-vaxxers, whose views are often rooted in bigotry (see: All Gas No Brakes video on the flat earth convention [0]). Those communities tend to encourage an "us vs them" mentality and to cut out those who seek to "hold them back" (basically modern cults - alienate yourself from your friends and loved ones, we will provide all the community you need). In the past, joining groups like the Klan was a much more difficult endeavor (they tended to operate much more in the shadows), and the groups tended to be on the smaller side. Today, it's just a matter of joining a Facebook group about "race realism", "the truth about George Floyd", or whatever, and bam, you have access to thousands of like-minded individuals to build your own personal echo chamber. The traditional tactics of people avoiding those they dislike IRL don't work so well as a form of collective shaming when you've got someone who is terminally online and has tons of people to tell them just how right they are and linking various garbage to reinforce the worldview. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H110vCGvTmM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H110vCGvTmM
ModernMech 5y ago
> The internet seems to specialize in this sort of "doxxing". Why? My theory is that the internet, even if you have a real name for a handle, still distances and dehumanizes others to the point where it's hard to understand the pain you're causing. That's a good theory. My personal theory is there are a lot of psychopaths and sociopaths in the world, and the internet lets them find each other and form communities that revel in causing misery.

mrtksn 5y ago

I think the solution of your problem is physically securing you against neo nazis instead of hiding your identity. Unless of corse you are writing this from the 1940's and you are in Central Europe. If that's the case, you have a case.

TheDong 5y ago
I am writing this on the internet. Physically securing myself does nothing to prevent hatemail, DoSs, and slander. The ideal that "lies can't hurt you, the truth is stronger than lies" has never seemed to actually work. There are countless fictions are far more prominent than facts, and there are countless people who's online experience has been damaged by a small contingent of dedicated attackers. The response to "harboring free speech to the extreme results in neonazis digitally harassing Jews" should not be "okay, fine, lock your door at night, free speech is more important than you being harassed".
- mrtksn 5y ago
  You get your e-harassment non-anonymously too. If people believe that it’s wrong for you to be subjected to that, those who do this to you will pay for it. Anonymity does have uses but it’s powerful and open to misuse. What we see today on the internet is it’s misuse, mostly.
  - saltminer 5y ago
    >If people believe that it’s wrong for you to be subjected to that, those who do this to you will pay for it. Are you referring to vigilante justice or just trusting the system? (What Americans refer to as the "democratic process" and the "justice system") Because if it's the former, it takes a lot for people to raise a hand against others outside self-defense. If it's the latter...the system usually fails. And saying "yeah well eventually, once there's enough political pressure, it won't fail" isn't any consolation to those who are now having to spend thousands of dollars on a therapist to recover from the trauma they've suffered (because American health insurance typically has crap mental health coverage).
    - mrtksn 5y ago
      Neither. I’m referring to humans desire to be liked and accepted. People are much nicer when their reputation is at stake. Being a total jerk towards you will make them excluded from the society and probably unhireable too.
      - saltminer 5y ago
        >People are much nicer when their reputation is at stake. I think a more accurate statement would be "People are much nicer when their money is at stake." And I don't mean "nicer" as in "genuinely better," it's more "I'll paint on a smile and not say anything bad" (just ask a waiter and they'll have plenty of tales where they had to do this for a tip). Today, there are plenty of online hangouts for people with all sorts of ideas. This is great since people can easily form communities around a TV show, hobby, etc, but it also enables flat earthers and anti-vaxxers, whose views are often rooted in bigotry (see: All Gas No Brakes video on the flat earth convention [0]). Those communities tend to encourage an "us vs them" mentality and to cut out those who seek to "hold them back" (basically modern cults - alienate yourself from your friends and loved ones, we will provide all the community you need). In the past, joining groups like the Klan was a much more difficult endeavor (they tended to operate much more in the shadows), and the groups tended to be on the smaller side. Today, it's just a matter of joining a Facebook group about "race realism", "the truth about George Floyd", or whatever, and bam, you have access to thousands of like-minded individuals to build your own personal echo chamber. The traditional tactics of people avoiding those they dislike IRL don't work so well as a form of collective shaming when you've got someone who is terminally online and has tons of people to tell them just how right they are and linking various garbage to reinforce the worldview. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H110vCGvTmM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H110vCGvTmM

ModernMech 5y ago

> The internet seems to specialize in this sort of "doxxing". Why? My theory is that the internet, even if you have a real name for a handle, still distances and dehumanizes others to the point where it's hard to understand the pain you're causing. That's a good theory. My personal theory is there are a lot of psychopaths and sociopaths in the world, and the internet lets them find each other and form communities that revel in causing misery.