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> You can't build "the next Facebook" on the web as it is today because the incumbent powers suffocate you so effectively. I don't doubt this suffocation is re

> You can't build "the next Facebook" on the web as it is today because the incumbent powers suffocate you so effectively. I don't doubt this suffocation is real, but isn't it really the strong network effects that Facebook benefits from which stops somebody from "building the next FB"?

Taek 5y ago
Facebook refuses to let anyone else tap those network effects, that's what's suffocating. Remember when Facebook and Twitter and everyone else had these amazing robust APIs you could build entire startups on top of? Then when they killed hundreds of companies overnight by turning them off? In the dweb, those APIs can't be shut off. Those hundreds of innovative companies would still be alive and adding value to the world.
- Karrot_Kream 5y ago
  I love the dweb! At the risk of going a bit off-topic, which dweb projects are you interested in?
- MomoXenosaga 5y ago
  I don't see the point. You still have the network effect: people aren't going to install 20 social media apps. Take WhatsApp: the technology behind it is ridiculously simple.
  - hutzlibu 5y ago
    "Take WhatsApp: the technology behind it is ridiculously simple. " No it is not, when you serve over 100 billion e2e encrspted messages everyday all around the world, and groups and chat, ... and all of it in a way that people think it is instant. Thats a problem with Signal. It is really really sluggish compared to whatsapp or telegram.
    - toast0 5y ago
      I worked at WhatsApp for almost eight years. It's actually pretty simple behind the covers. Yes, there's a lot of attention to detail and a lot of edge cases that WA covers better than most others, but there's not a lot of truly complex things. It's mostly doing a lot of simple things well (and some amount of picking the right structures to keep things as simple as possible). Often doing things simply means skipping current computing trends. And of course, sometimes doing things simply doesn't actually meet the needs, and may make changes harder later. Of course, Signal has much harder to meet privacy goals and a smaller staff and they didn't build on Erlang, so they're playing on hard mode.
  - Taek 5y ago
    With the dweb, you don't need to install 20 social media apps. There can be 20 different social media apps that all interoperate. I can be using one app, and you can be using another app, and we can still message each other and see each other's posts because the data is openly available across applications. That's why it's going to win. You don't need every platform to implement every interesting feature, the open nature of the data allows the innovation to happen much more effortlessly.
    - ulisesrmzroche 5y ago
      It actually hampers innovation because innovation requires decisiveness. Nothing clarifies what’s important than money and the lack of it
  - dasyatidprime 5y ago
    People will install 20 social media apps for 20 different psychological contexts that have subtly different needs and can use a UI distinguisher to key their brain in on which set is active. People won't install another social media app if there isn't sufficient incoming social credit encouraging them to use it and the need falls into an existing category. Something sufficiently different can gain an “I couldn't have done this with” credit to overcome some stickiness with. … maybe. Sort of. I think. (I wonder what this means for e.g. Facebook's acquisitions of Instagram and WhatsApp, if it's true.)
- ulisesrmzroche 5y ago
  No, think about MySpace. No one will ever replace by piggybacking off their API. But Facebook did beat MySpace. That’s what network effects are
1vuio0pswjnm7 5y ago
"I don't doubt that suffocation is real, but ..." Why bother with the suffocation then. Acquiring WhatsApp was not cheap and required significant effort. Why bother. Than answer to your question is no, IMO. Network effects may discourage competition from people with defeatist attitudes (who would give up before even trying), but network effects are not exclusive to Facebook. They can happen elsewhere. One theory why Apple is letting iPhone users stop Facebook from tracking them is that Apple believes that iMessage is or will be competing with WhatsApp. It aligns with the theory that Facebook's move to change the WhatsApp ToS at this time is because usage of so-called "E2E" messaging apps is growing significantly.

Taek 5y ago

Facebook refuses to let anyone else tap those network effects, that's what's suffocating. Remember when Facebook and Twitter and everyone else had these amazing robust APIs you could build entire startups on top of? Then when they killed hundreds of companies overnight by turning them off? In the dweb, those APIs can't be shut off. Those hundreds of innovative companies would still be alive and adding value to the world.

Karrot_Kream 5y ago
I love the dweb! At the risk of going a bit off-topic, which dweb projects are you interested in?
MomoXenosaga 5y ago
I don't see the point. You still have the network effect: people aren't going to install 20 social media apps. Take WhatsApp: the technology behind it is ridiculously simple.
- hutzlibu 5y ago
  "Take WhatsApp: the technology behind it is ridiculously simple. " No it is not, when you serve over 100 billion e2e encrspted messages everyday all around the world, and groups and chat, ... and all of it in a way that people think it is instant. Thats a problem with Signal. It is really really sluggish compared to whatsapp or telegram.
  - toast0 5y ago
    I worked at WhatsApp for almost eight years. It's actually pretty simple behind the covers. Yes, there's a lot of attention to detail and a lot of edge cases that WA covers better than most others, but there's not a lot of truly complex things. It's mostly doing a lot of simple things well (and some amount of picking the right structures to keep things as simple as possible). Often doing things simply means skipping current computing trends. And of course, sometimes doing things simply doesn't actually meet the needs, and may make changes harder later. Of course, Signal has much harder to meet privacy goals and a smaller staff and they didn't build on Erlang, so they're playing on hard mode.
- Taek 5y ago
  With the dweb, you don't need to install 20 social media apps. There can be 20 different social media apps that all interoperate. I can be using one app, and you can be using another app, and we can still message each other and see each other's posts because the data is openly available across applications. That's why it's going to win. You don't need every platform to implement every interesting feature, the open nature of the data allows the innovation to happen much more effortlessly.
  - ulisesrmzroche 5y ago
    It actually hampers innovation because innovation requires decisiveness. Nothing clarifies what’s important than money and the lack of it
- dasyatidprime 5y ago
  People will install 20 social media apps for 20 different psychological contexts that have subtly different needs and can use a UI distinguisher to key their brain in on which set is active. People won't install another social media app if there isn't sufficient incoming social credit encouraging them to use it and the need falls into an existing category. Something sufficiently different can gain an “I couldn't have done this with” credit to overcome some stickiness with. … maybe. Sort of. I think. (I wonder what this means for e.g. Facebook's acquisitions of Instagram and WhatsApp, if it's true.)
ulisesrmzroche 5y ago
No, think about MySpace. No one will ever replace by piggybacking off their API. But Facebook did beat MySpace. That’s what network effects are

1vuio0pswjnm7 5y ago

"I don't doubt that suffocation is real, but ..." Why bother with the suffocation then. Acquiring WhatsApp was not cheap and required significant effort. Why bother. Than answer to your question is no, IMO. Network effects may discourage competition from people with defeatist attitudes (who would give up before even trying), but network effects are not exclusive to Facebook. They can happen elsewhere. One theory why Apple is letting iPhone users stop Facebook from tracking them is that Apple believes that iMessage is or will be competing with WhatsApp. It aligns with the theory that Facebook's move to change the WhatsApp ToS at this time is because usage of so-called "E2E" messaging apps is growing significantly.