5 ms·

What bothers me is the idea that we can only have one type of computing--that for general-purpose computing to exist, we have to kill off every other kind of co

What bothers me is the idea that we can only have one type of computing--that for general-purpose computing to exist, we have to kill off every other kind of computing. This is not a zero-sum game. We can have console-style computers and general purpose computers, and they can both exist simultaneously without one having to win and the other having to lose.

ur-whale 5y ago
>We can have console-style computers and general purpose computers Up until the time you try to get your non-GP computer to do something the manufacturer didn't want you to, such as retrieving some data locked in your Android phone.
walterbell 5y ago
The economics of mass-production don't work as market sizes shrink, you can observe this by comparing MP3 player prices and selection today vs a decade ago.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- maxerickson 5y ago
  Looks like the 'usual' capacity went from 8 GB to 32 GB and anything over $50 disappeared, in lieu of dozens of inexpensive devices from Chinese manufacturers?
  - walterbell 5y ago
    For example, Sony Walkman price range is $45 - $8500, https://electronics.sony.com/audio/walkman-digital-recorders/c/walkman-mp3-players https://electronics.sony.com/audio/walkman-digital-recorders...
    - maxerickson 5y ago
      That seems to be exceptional, there's hundreds of inexpensive devices listed on Amazon with greater capacity than you'd have got for $100 in 2011.
      - walterbell 5y ago
        A decade ago, there were more MP3 player choices with low cost and good quality, even supporting open-source firmware. Now there is low cost/quality and high cost/quality. This thread has more details, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26870648 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26870648 There was a time when laptops had 4:3 screens. Then the market changed because of demand for HD-video screen ratios. Today, the only portable option for 13" 4:3 screens (vertical real estate for text editing) is iPad Pro. Hyperscaler cloud vendors can now order custom CPUs that are simply unavailable to retail. There's an endless list of markets which have been altered as demand volume shifts from one segment to another.
rhn_mk1 5y ago
The original essay about general purpose computing points out that it's the underpinning of the "special-purpose computing", and that the "general" part will always bubble to the surface, unless users' freedom to own their devices is taken away. So the meaning of "war on general computing" is closer to "war on ownership". Sure, owned and unowned computers can both coexist, but it's not clearly a good thing to allow someone else to control one's devices.
- username90 5y ago
  > unless users' freedom to own their devices is taken away This is a really easy problem to fix though, we are already quickly moving in that direction. Every big provider is moving towards more and more hardware and software lockins, and since everyone is doing it slowly consumers aren't reacting. I'd be surprised if general purpose computers aren't seen as a niche market in 20 years and illegal in many parts of the world in 40 years. Here is roughly how it will happen: As more people are locked in general purpose computing will get an increasing density of bad actors. Big tech will publish studies showing that almost all viruses, malware, scams, child porn etc comes from general purpose devices, and therefore push for regulations to ensure everyone uses a locked down device. Anyone who argues against that will be attacked with arguments such as "Are you really going to prioritize your hobby at the expense of children getting sexually abused? There is no need for anyone but criminals to own a general purpose computer!".
  - ehnto 5y ago
    There is an enormous amount of software being written every day, much of it outside of silicon valley, much of it outside America, there are far more forces at work here than the SV tech monopolies and while I absolutely find the picture you're painting to be believable I feel (hope) it might not survive reality. It requires the big powers to work together, and for every other actor to not contest it, for governments to accept and endorse the monopolies, and we're already seeing some fighting back in those fronts. I imagine the monopolistic orchestration will pull itself apart long before general purpose computing dies. I suspect we'll see much ado about all of this in court at some point, it will be sad to even get to that point, but even if the consumers are happy campers I really doubt other businesses, and other stakeholders (nations included), will be.
bakugo 5y ago
>We can have console-style computers and general purpose computers, and they can both exist simultaneously without one having to win and the other having to lose. No, we really can't, and you probably didn't read the article if you think we can. Making general purpose computers and the software to support them is less profitable than making smartphone-ish locked down computers. It's just a fact. The corporations will gravitate towards the most profitable options, as they always do. "But as long as there's a market, even small, someone will make them" you say. But you're forgetting that computers don't exist in isolation. They just don't work that well on their own. The main reason they're so useful is because of networking. You can be running a computer with 100% free software, but you will probably still use online services that are not free. You need to use them to live a normal life in the world of today. But thanks to hardware DRM, you might not be able to use these non-free services on a free device for much longer. Do you know what happens when you try to open the McDonalds app on an android phone running a custom operating system? It doesn't run. The server tells you to fuck off. It sends a message to your device's TrustZone, a black box security chip that you have absolutely no control over, asking if the device is running an original locked-down OS. The chip signs the response with its own private keys that cannot be extracted and sends it back to the server, which can then decide to reject you if it's not the response it wants. This is the reality of smartphones. It's not a joke. And now, with Windows 11 requiring a TPM chip which is just TrustZone for x86, this is coming to desktops. And everyone is eating it up, to the point where TPM expansion boards went up in price after the announcement. Nothing will stop it. 10 years from now you will try to open some random popular website on your linux computer and it will not work. It will detect that you are not running an authorized system and reject your request. Want to order food? Too bad, use a locked down device. Want to buy something and have it delivered to you? Too bad, use a locked down device. Want to access your bank's website to check your account, or even just spend money? Too bad, use a locked down device. The bank part is already a reality, many banks today require verification using their app before letting you make online purchases, and the app only works on locked down smartphones. Eventually, when enough network services stop working on "general purpose computers", 99.9% of the population will not want to use them anymore and they will disappear.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
  I genuinely wish I could give more mod points. This is already happening. If there is going to be a war, its outcome is far from a given ( and I personally worry, general computing will be on the losing side ). The only thing that could stop is us. We are still creating the building blocks that make it all happen. It is not like we do not stand a chance, but it is hard not to feel pessimistic about the outcome since just about every communication from the power centers can be summed up with 'moar powah, moar'.

ur-whale 5y ago

>We can have console-style computers and general purpose computers Up until the time you try to get your non-GP computer to do something the manufacturer didn't want you to, such as retrieving some data locked in your Android phone.

walterbell 5y ago

The economics of mass-production don't work as market sizes shrink, you can observe this by comparing MP3 player prices and selection today vs a decade ago.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
maxerickson 5y ago
Looks like the 'usual' capacity went from 8 GB to 32 GB and anything over $50 disappeared, in lieu of dozens of inexpensive devices from Chinese manufacturers?
- walterbell 5y ago
  For example, Sony Walkman price range is $45 - $8500, https://electronics.sony.com/audio/walkman-digital-recorders/c/walkman-mp3-players https://electronics.sony.com/audio/walkman-digital-recorders...
  - maxerickson 5y ago
    That seems to be exceptional, there's hundreds of inexpensive devices listed on Amazon with greater capacity than you'd have got for $100 in 2011.
    - walterbell 5y ago
      A decade ago, there were more MP3 player choices with low cost and good quality, even supporting open-source firmware. Now there is low cost/quality and high cost/quality. This thread has more details, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26870648 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26870648 There was a time when laptops had 4:3 screens. Then the market changed because of demand for HD-video screen ratios. Today, the only portable option for 13" 4:3 screens (vertical real estate for text editing) is iPad Pro. Hyperscaler cloud vendors can now order custom CPUs that are simply unavailable to retail. There's an endless list of markets which have been altered as demand volume shifts from one segment to another.

rhn_mk1 5y ago

The original essay about general purpose computing points out that it's the underpinning of the "special-purpose computing", and that the "general" part will always bubble to the surface, unless users' freedom to own their devices is taken away. So the meaning of "war on general computing" is closer to "war on ownership". Sure, owned and unowned computers can both coexist, but it's not clearly a good thing to allow someone else to control one's devices.

username90 5y ago
> unless users' freedom to own their devices is taken away This is a really easy problem to fix though, we are already quickly moving in that direction. Every big provider is moving towards more and more hardware and software lockins, and since everyone is doing it slowly consumers aren't reacting. I'd be surprised if general purpose computers aren't seen as a niche market in 20 years and illegal in many parts of the world in 40 years. Here is roughly how it will happen: As more people are locked in general purpose computing will get an increasing density of bad actors. Big tech will publish studies showing that almost all viruses, malware, scams, child porn etc comes from general purpose devices, and therefore push for regulations to ensure everyone uses a locked down device. Anyone who argues against that will be attacked with arguments such as "Are you really going to prioritize your hobby at the expense of children getting sexually abused? There is no need for anyone but criminals to own a general purpose computer!".
- ehnto 5y ago
  There is an enormous amount of software being written every day, much of it outside of silicon valley, much of it outside America, there are far more forces at work here than the SV tech monopolies and while I absolutely find the picture you're painting to be believable I feel (hope) it might not survive reality. It requires the big powers to work together, and for every other actor to not contest it, for governments to accept and endorse the monopolies, and we're already seeing some fighting back in those fronts. I imagine the monopolistic orchestration will pull itself apart long before general purpose computing dies. I suspect we'll see much ado about all of this in court at some point, it will be sad to even get to that point, but even if the consumers are happy campers I really doubt other businesses, and other stakeholders (nations included), will be.

bakugo 5y ago

>We can have console-style computers and general purpose computers, and they can both exist simultaneously without one having to win and the other having to lose. No, we really can't, and you probably didn't read the article if you think we can. Making general purpose computers and the software to support them is less profitable than making smartphone-ish locked down computers. It's just a fact. The corporations will gravitate towards the most profitable options, as they always do. "But as long as there's a market, even small, someone will make them" you say. But you're forgetting that computers don't exist in isolation. They just don't work that well on their own. The main reason they're so useful is because of networking. You can be running a computer with 100% free software, but you will probably still use online services that are not free. You need to use them to live a normal life in the world of today. But thanks to hardware DRM, you might not be able to use these non-free services on a free device for much longer. Do you know what happens when you try to open the McDonalds app on an android phone running a custom operating system? It doesn't run. The server tells you to fuck off. It sends a message to your device's TrustZone, a black box security chip that you have absolutely no control over, asking if the device is running an original locked-down OS. The chip signs the response with its own private keys that cannot be extracted and sends it back to the server, which can then decide to reject you if it's not the response it wants. This is the reality of smartphones. It's not a joke. And now, with Windows 11 requiring a TPM chip which is just TrustZone for x86, this is coming to desktops. And everyone is eating it up, to the point where TPM expansion boards went up in price after the announcement. Nothing will stop it. 10 years from now you will try to open some random popular website on your linux computer and it will not work. It will detect that you are not running an authorized system and reject your request. Want to order food? Too bad, use a locked down device. Want to buy something and have it delivered to you? Too bad, use a locked down device. Want to access your bank's website to check your account, or even just spend money? Too bad, use a locked down device. The bank part is already a reality, many banks today require verification using their app before letting you make online purchases, and the app only works on locked down smartphones. Eventually, when enough network services stop working on "general purpose computers", 99.9% of the population will not want to use them anymore and they will disappear.

A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
I genuinely wish I could give more mod points. This is already happening. If there is going to be a war, its outcome is far from a given ( and I personally worry, general computing will be on the losing side ). The only thing that could stop is us. We are still creating the building blocks that make it all happen. It is not like we do not stand a chance, but it is hard not to feel pessimistic about the outcome since just about every communication from the power centers can be summed up with 'moar powah, moar'.