5 ms·

It is also slowly becoming illegal to criticise Islam. Taking Islam out of the equation do you think it’s a good idea for any religion to actually be off the t

by zpeti 5y ago

It is also slowly becoming illegal to criticise Islam. Taking Islam out of the equation do you think it’s a good idea for any religion to actually be off the table in terms of discussion?

bigthymer 5y ago
> It is also slowly becoming illegal to criticise Islam Really? Literally "Illegal" as in laws against it, or figuratively as in no longer socially acceptable?
- cm2187 5y ago
  https://eclj.org/free-speech/echr/blasphemy-crime-the-echr-is-not-charlie https://eclj.org/free-speech/echr/blasphemy-crime-the-echr-i...
  - 8note 5y ago
    It looks like there's a lot more nuanced in there than criticising Islam. Trying to convince people that all Muslims are pedophiles is a bit different than calling Mohammad a pedophile
    - cm2187 5y ago
      That's not what the ECHR ruled on.
- zpeti 5y ago
  Yes, literally. Hate speech laws.
- whoooooo123 5y ago
  Go burn a Koran and see what happens.
slg 5y ago
You are equating criticizing a religion with spreading hate speech. Islam or any religion is not "off the table in terms of discussion". Many European countries, including Germany, simply don't want people crossing the lines into speech that can incite people to harm others.
- nomel 5y ago
  > simply don't want people crossing the lines into speech that can incite people to harm others. I think that's very very far from simple, since it necessarily requires the government slowly align, and converge, with those people, so they they are never offended and never cause harm.
  - slg 5y ago
    > since it necessarily requires the government slowly align, and converge, with those people, so they they are never offended and never cause harm. "Those people" are not the ones who dictate whether something is hate speech. Whether someone is offended is not a factor in hate speech laws. When I said "incite people to harm others" I am talking about physical harm or violence. It is perfectly legal to offend people in Germany.
    - zpeti 5y ago
      Already linked above but here you go: https://eclj.org/free-speech/echr/blasphemy-crime-the-echr-is-not-charlie https://eclj.org/free-speech/echr/blasphemy-crime-the-echr-i...
      - slg 5y ago
        FYI Austria and Germany haven't been a unified country in three quarters of a century. My original comment was about laws against misinformation in Germany. That doesn't mean I endorse or need to defend all free speech laws in all of Europe.
    - corty 5y ago
      > It is perfectly legal to offend people in Germany. No, wrong, it isn't. https://dejure.org/gesetze/StGB/183a.html https://dejure.org/gesetze/StGB/183a.html https://dejure.org/gesetze/StGB/166.html https://dejure.org/gesetze/StGB/166.html Sexual and religious offense. Both predicated on someone being (even just possibly) offended. https://dejure.org/gesetze/StGB/185.html https://dejure.org/gesetze/StGB/185.html https://dejure.org/gesetze/StGB/188.html https://dejure.org/gesetze/StGB/188.html General offense, usually only prosecuted if the offended wants it (but the prosecutor has discretion to proceed without). Harsher punishments if the offended is a politician. https://dejure.org/gesetze/StGB/104.html https://dejure.org/gesetze/StGB/104.html Even just offending other states by burning flags is punishable. So you couldn't be more wrong. (I personally think those laws are BS and should be done away with.)

by zpeti 5y ago

It is also slowly becoming illegal to criticise Islam. Taking Islam out of the equation do you think it’s a good idea for any religion to actually be off the table in terms of discussion?

bigthymer 5y ago

> It is also slowly becoming illegal to criticise Islam Really? Literally "Illegal" as in laws against it, or figuratively as in no longer socially acceptable?

cm2187 5y ago
https://eclj.org/free-speech/echr/blasphemy-crime-the-echr-is-not-charlie https://eclj.org/free-speech/echr/blasphemy-crime-the-echr-i...
- 8note 5y ago
  It looks like there's a lot more nuanced in there than criticising Islam. Trying to convince people that all Muslims are pedophiles is a bit different than calling Mohammad a pedophile
  - cm2187 5y ago
    That's not what the ECHR ruled on.
zpeti 5y ago
Yes, literally. Hate speech laws.
whoooooo123 5y ago
Go burn a Koran and see what happens.

slg 5y ago

You are equating criticizing a religion with spreading hate speech. Islam or any religion is not "off the table in terms of discussion". Many European countries, including Germany, simply don't want people crossing the lines into speech that can incite people to harm others.

nomel 5y ago
> simply don't want people crossing the lines into speech that can incite people to harm others. I think that's very very far from simple, since it necessarily requires the government slowly align, and converge, with those people, so they they are never offended and never cause harm.
- slg 5y ago
  > since it necessarily requires the government slowly align, and converge, with those people, so they they are never offended and never cause harm. "Those people" are not the ones who dictate whether something is hate speech. Whether someone is offended is not a factor in hate speech laws. When I said "incite people to harm others" I am talking about physical harm or violence. It is perfectly legal to offend people in Germany.
  - zpeti 5y ago
    Already linked above but here you go: https://eclj.org/free-speech/echr/blasphemy-crime-the-echr-is-not-charlie https://eclj.org/free-speech/echr/blasphemy-crime-the-echr-i...
    - slg 5y ago
      FYI Austria and Germany haven't been a unified country in three quarters of a century. My original comment was about laws against misinformation in Germany. That doesn't mean I endorse or need to defend all free speech laws in all of Europe.
  - corty 5y ago
    > It is perfectly legal to offend people in Germany. No, wrong, it isn't. https://dejure.org/gesetze/StGB/183a.html https://dejure.org/gesetze/StGB/183a.html https://dejure.org/gesetze/StGB/166.html https://dejure.org/gesetze/StGB/166.html Sexual and religious offense. Both predicated on someone being (even just possibly) offended. https://dejure.org/gesetze/StGB/185.html https://dejure.org/gesetze/StGB/185.html https://dejure.org/gesetze/StGB/188.html https://dejure.org/gesetze/StGB/188.html General offense, usually only prosecuted if the offended wants it (but the prosecutor has discretion to proceed without). Harsher punishments if the offended is a politician. https://dejure.org/gesetze/StGB/104.html https://dejure.org/gesetze/StGB/104.html Even just offending other states by burning flags is punishable. So you couldn't be more wrong. (I personally think those laws are BS and should be done away with.)