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>Do we still teach history at school? I'm talking about history of many countries. No fear whatsoever of information control and government censorship. I'm baff
by slg 5y ago
>Do we still teach history at school? I'm talking about history of many countries. No fear whatsoever of information control and government censorship. I'm baffled and saddened.
I agree. We don't spend enough time teaching about the history of free speech in other countries like Germany. And no, I don't only mean in 1930s and 1940s Germany. I also mean the Germany of today. They, along with much of Europe, have laws outlawing some misinformation such as Holocaust denial and their societies haven't collapsed into totalitarianism.
Some restrictions on speech are truly dangerous. Some aren't. It is important to have the historical context to help know which one we are discussing.
- zpeti 5y agoIt is also slowly becoming illegal to criticise Islam. Taking Islam out of the equation do you think it’s a good idea for any religion to actually be off the table in terms of discussion?
- bigthymer 5y ago> It is also slowly becoming illegal to criticise Islam Really? Literally "Illegal" as in laws against it, or figuratively as in no longer socially acceptable?
- cm2187 5y agohttps://eclj.org/free-speech/echr/blasphemy-crime-the-echr-is-not-charlie https://eclj.org/free-speech/echr/blasphemy-crime-the-echr-i...
- zpeti 5y agoYes, literally. Hate speech laws.
- whoooooo123 5y agoGo burn a Koran and see what happens.
- slg 5y agoYou are equating criticizing a religion with spreading hate speech. Islam or any religion is not "off the table in terms of discussion". Many European countries, including Germany, simply don't want people crossing the lines into speech that can incite people to harm others.
- nomel 5y ago> simply don't want people crossing the lines into speech that can incite people to harm others. I think that's very very far from simple, since it necessarily requires the government slowly align, and converge, with those people, so they they are never offended and never cause harm.
- slg 5y ago> since it necessarily requires the government slowly align, and converge, with those people, so they they are never offended and never cause harm. "Those people" are not the ones who dictate whether something is hate speech. Whether someone is offended is not a factor in hate speech laws. When I said "incite people to harm others" I am talking about physical harm or violence. It is perfectly legal to offend people in Germany.
- zpeti 5y agoAlready linked above but here you go: https://eclj.org/free-speech/echr/blasphemy-crime-the-echr-is-not-charlie https://eclj.org/free-speech/echr/blasphemy-crime-the-echr-i...
- slg 5y agoFYI Austria and Germany haven't been a unified country in three quarters of a century. My original comment was about laws against misinformation in Germany. That doesn't mean I endorse or need to defend all free speech laws in all of Europe.
- corty 5y ago> It is perfectly legal to offend people in Germany. No, wrong, it isn't. https://dejure.org/gesetze/StGB/183a.html https://dejure.org/gesetze/StGB/183a.html https://dejure.org/gesetze/StGB/166.html https://dejure.org/gesetze/StGB/166.html Sexual and religious offense. Both predicated on someone being (even just possibly) offended. https://dejure.org/gesetze/StGB/185.html https://dejure.org/gesetze/StGB/185.html https://dejure.org/gesetze/StGB/188.html https://dejure.org/gesetze/StGB/188.html General offense, usually only prosecuted if the offended wants it (but the prosecutor has discretion to proceed without). Harsher punishments if the offended is a politician. https://dejure.org/gesetze/StGB/104.html https://dejure.org/gesetze/StGB/104.html Even just offending other states by burning flags is punishable. So you couldn't be more wrong. (I personally think those laws are BS and should be done away with.)
- imwillofficial 5y agoPlaying devils advocate here, how is holocaust denial dangerous?
- slg 5y agoAt the most basic level, denying or downplaying a previous genocide increases the odds of a future genocide.
- imwillofficial 5y agoDo you have data to support that by any chance, I’ve heard old axioms, but nothing more than that.
- slg 5y agoI don't want to be a jerk, but if you want to play devil's advocate, you can do the research yourself. I am comfortable believing the old "those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it" adage without having a peer reviewed study on it.
- imwillofficial 5y agoI don’t take it as being a jerk, I’m just trying to question my assumptions in being intellectually rigorous. I’m failing to see how denying an event leads to repeating it, or the inverse, how accepting a historical event shields you from repeating it. Genocide existed before hitler, and I’m assuming hitler knew about some of it, so why didn’t it work there? This is a valid line of questioning.
- skissane 5y agoBut the Turkish government and its supporters are allowed to deny and downplay the Armenian genocide to their hearts content. The European Court of Human Rights even decided (Perinçek v. Switzerland) that people have a free speech right to deny the Armenian genocide, yet it has also held that people don't have a free speech right to deny the Holocaust (Pastörs v. Germany). Both genocides happened, both genocides were awful, but it seems like different rules apply to denying different genocides, and that those rules are based on political calculations rather than defensible principle.