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> It’s a system where day in and day out, almost everyone you encounter is a really shitty human being. This is categorically not true. Police have to deal wit

by ska 5y ago

> It’s a system where day in and day out, almost everyone you encounter is a really shitty human being. This is categorically not true. Police have to deal with some very problematic people, sure. But bad days are far more common that bad people, and most interactions aren't even that. Every police force has its share of assholes too, who are net cause of more problems than they solve. The most effective ones I've known have been aware of the systemic problems of thinking like you suggest, and intentionally work against it.

antiterra 5y ago
It depends on what part of the system you’re in, and much of the criminal justice system exists after an initial filter and with a particular pipeline that it’s almost impossible to avoid a bias against on a day to day basis. If your job is to do image/video forensics on hard drives of people already arrested or served with warrants, it’s generally either unremarkable or traumatically upsetting. The latter is going to have the most impact on your perception, and would likely color your worldview on things like encryption or the overall goodness of humanity.
- ska 5y ago
  This is true, I originally had a comment about narrower roles but thought it was a a distraction. If you are looking at the justice system as a whole, the pool of people shifts a fair bit. However, you have to pick an extremely narrow role before you are anywhere close to GP's "almost everyone is shitty" characterization. My comment was more aimed at general policing, the vast majority of which fits my characterization.
craftinator 5y ago
> Every police force has its share of assholes too Due to the nature of the job, and the perks and impunity of it in the US, it actually self selects for assholes. The military does as well, to a much lesser extent. There were some days when I went to bed thinking, "everyone I talked to today was a self important asshole."
rayiner 5y ago
When I say “criminal justice system” I’m talking in the context of this article (people who are arrested and prosecuted). Obviously most interactions with the police are with normal people and don’t lead to anything major. But randomly pick out some sentencing hearings one day at your local federal court. They’ll go over the rap sheet of people who actually go to prison. It’s eye opening. You can even see this in the criminal justice advocacy materials if you read carefully. I love the ACLU but if you read beyond the headline in many cases it’s quite revealing. I remember a case a few years ago where the headline was some “child” was imprisoned simply for being at a scene where a pizza delivery guy was murdered in broad daylight. Turns out he was actually in a gang, who murdered the guy in cold blood, and the legal theory is that the cops can’t prove which kid actually fired the shots. You can find the legal theory compelling (and I do) while acknowledging that this is the kind of shit that turns up even when social justice types are trying to pick impact cases. Or heck George Floyd. I think the media overlooked a really important angle on this story that would have spoke to religious people. Floyd was a guy who spent most of his life being a pretty bad person: https://apnews.com/article/virus-outbreak-us-news-ap-top-news-hip-hop-and-rap-houston-a55d2662f200ead0da4fed9e923b60a7 https://apnews.com/article/virus-outbreak-us-news-ap-top-new... But he had found Jesus, he was turning his life around and reaching out to kids, and when Derek Chauvin murdered him he cut short what could have been a path to redemption. Reflexively saying “criminals don’t deserve to be murdered” when Floyd’s background comes up is a tautology. Sure. But does pretending that stuff never happened help you understand the real human story of Floyd, Chauvin, and the people in that community? Why making progress on criminal justice reform is so hard even as it’s extremely necessary? Is your phat dismissal and reduction of people to a demons and angels binary persuasive to anyone who doesn’t already agree with you?
- ska 5y ago
  Even if you are talking only about people prosecuted, "98% shitty people" is ridiculously hyperbolic. It also, as you note, precludes the majority of police work which was more my point; lots of people make excuses for the excesses of these systems based on this sort of "98%" (or whatever big number) argument; mostly those excuses are pure fertilizer.
  - 5y ago

by ska 5y ago

antiterra 5y ago

It depends on what part of the system you’re in, and much of the criminal justice system exists after an initial filter and with a particular pipeline that it’s almost impossible to avoid a bias against on a day to day basis. If your job is to do image/video forensics on hard drives of people already arrested or served with warrants, it’s generally either unremarkable or traumatically upsetting. The latter is going to have the most impact on your perception, and would likely color your worldview on things like encryption or the overall goodness of humanity.

ska 5y ago
This is true, I originally had a comment about narrower roles but thought it was a a distraction. If you are looking at the justice system as a whole, the pool of people shifts a fair bit. However, you have to pick an extremely narrow role before you are anywhere close to GP's "almost everyone is shitty" characterization. My comment was more aimed at general policing, the vast majority of which fits my characterization.

craftinator 5y ago

> Every police force has its share of assholes too Due to the nature of the job, and the perks and impunity of it in the US, it actually self selects for assholes. The military does as well, to a much lesser extent. There were some days when I went to bed thinking, "everyone I talked to today was a self important asshole."

rayiner 5y ago

When I say “criminal justice system” I’m talking in the context of this article (people who are arrested and prosecuted). Obviously most interactions with the police are with normal people and don’t lead to anything major. But randomly pick out some sentencing hearings one day at your local federal court. They’ll go over the rap sheet of people who actually go to prison. It’s eye opening. You can even see this in the criminal justice advocacy materials if you read carefully. I love the ACLU but if you read beyond the headline in many cases it’s quite revealing. I remember a case a few years ago where the headline was some “child” was imprisoned simply for being at a scene where a pizza delivery guy was murdered in broad daylight. Turns out he was actually in a gang, who murdered the guy in cold blood, and the legal theory is that the cops can’t prove which kid actually fired the shots. You can find the legal theory compelling (and I do) while acknowledging that this is the kind of shit that turns up even when social justice types are trying to pick impact cases. Or heck George Floyd. I think the media overlooked a really important angle on this story that would have spoke to religious people. Floyd was a guy who spent most of his life being a pretty bad person: https://apnews.com/article/virus-outbreak-us-news-ap-top-news-hip-hop-and-rap-houston-a55d2662f200ead0da4fed9e923b60a7 https://apnews.com/article/virus-outbreak-us-news-ap-top-new... But he had found Jesus, he was turning his life around and reaching out to kids, and when Derek Chauvin murdered him he cut short what could have been a path to redemption. Reflexively saying “criminals don’t deserve to be murdered” when Floyd’s background comes up is a tautology. Sure. But does pretending that stuff never happened help you understand the real human story of Floyd, Chauvin, and the people in that community? Why making progress on criminal justice reform is so hard even as it’s extremely necessary? Is your phat dismissal and reduction of people to a demons and angels binary persuasive to anyone who doesn’t already agree with you?

ska 5y ago
Even if you are talking only about people prosecuted, "98% shitty people" is ridiculously hyperbolic. It also, as you note, precludes the majority of police work which was more my point; lots of people make excuses for the excesses of these systems based on this sort of "98%" (or whatever big number) argument; mostly those excuses are pure fertilizer.
- 5y ago