4 ms·

Strange, I find it particularly accurate.

jonnycomputer 5y ago
Then use "prostrate", or "abject submission" when means the same thing, more or less. English already has words for this! It is not about accuracy, but about language that is stereotypically reserved for when talking about China, and to my ears, it comes off as a bit racist, tbh.
- MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago
  磕頭 is the Chinese word "Kowtow" basically meaning "submission" or "prostrate." Yet For some reason, the fact that the Chinese employed this method of submission on others was okay, but when we use it on the context of China forcing it on Western countries, suddenly it's "racist." Whether I use the word the Chinese made or the use an English amalgamation of its meaning is irrelevant. There is absolutely nothing even remotely ethnocentric or bigoted in using the word. You are just an easily offended person.
  - jonnycomputer 5y ago
    Are you writing in Chinese? No, you weren't. So the question is, what is the intent here? Would you have used the same word if, for example, the context was Brazil? or Russia? I think a little more self-reflection, rather than defensiveness is in order. Especially because the comment was intended to be helpful, and not a criticism. The original comment was getting downvoted, and I suggested what the reason might be.
    - OhWellLol 5y ago
      The intent is to reveal your linguistic hypochondria, which appears to be working very well.
      - jonnycomputer 5y ago
        Or just that I'm a little more aware? https://www.google.com/search?q=news+kowtow+-definition+-meaning+-etymology+-kowtowclothing+-clothes+-encyclopedia+-clothing https://www.google.com/search?q=news+kowtow+-definition+-mea... That's a google search. I just filter out definitions, references, and the clothing brand. Now look at it. Sure there are examples of the word kowtow used for other things. But its mostly about China. Because in the context of China, the word just suggests itself. But why? What does it add? What does it subtract. No one here wants to wrestle with that. Instead they get defensive.
        OhWellLol 5y ago
        Oh goodie, using linguistic references from Google to justify accusatory paranoia. Let's play that game! https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?q=Kowtow&geo=US https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?q=Kowtow&geo=US I-I-I-is North Dakota a bastion of Chinese context!? Your conspiracy theory is not only nakedly annoying, but pointless until you address this very serious North Dakota problem.
    - MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago
      I call the Russian special forces Spetznaz and the Brazilian yearly festival Car-ni-val. Or when I am happy when bad happens to other people, I have schadenfreude. Did you also know most of English is comprised of loan words from other languages too? Or are you offended too that words like etiquette are actually french? So yes. I would use a word that the said culture would say themselves.
      - jonnycomputer 5y ago
        Yeah, well that's fine and all. But you're also not exactly talking about the ancient Chinese practice of submitting to the Emperor either. There are no Chinese emperors, and kowtow is not a contemporary custom. So, no, you aren't doing what you are saying you are doing. You are using the word to have the meaning it has acquired in Europe and America. So why is it that when we talk about Western relationships with China the word kowtow comes up so often? What does it add? Why does it suggest itself? Maybe wrestle with that for a while. This isn't about you.
        mooseburger 5y ago
        > What does it add? Why does it suggest itself? What do you think it does? No idea where you're going with this.
        Uberphallus 5y ago
        > kowtow is not a contemporary custom It's rare as a protocolary practice, but it's still part of the culture. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-35553120 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-35553120
        dang 5y ago
        Would you please not perpetuate flamewars on HN? I understand how the same word can land differently with different people. To the extent that you're making a factual argument, it's fine to make the point. Unfortunately you also started a flamewar with loaded language and since then have crossed into personal attack and blaming others for what is clearly a co-creation. It's definitely not easy to avoid mixing these things but if we're to have thoughtful discussion, we all need to try. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - jyrkesh 5y ago
      I would have. English is a frankenstein language, adopting words from all sorts of different languages. Kowtow means what it means in English, it's a perfectly reasonable word to have used there. I tried really hard to see if this wasn't the case, but the consensus across the web seems to align with this SO post: https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/314900/does-kowtow-have-racist-connotations https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/314900/does-kowt... IMO, he was being downvoted because this particular instance is just as much a show of kowtowing to the US government as the Chinese government.
      - jonnycomputer 5y ago
        The accepted answer reads, "In light of all this, the fuller answer is that because the term is recognisably ethnic, using kowtow instead of (say) grovel does carry some racist overtones, particularly when applied to someone interacting with a person of a different ethnicity."
  - dang 5y ago
    Crossing into personal attack and nationalistic flamewar is definitely not cool here so please don't. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- acrobatsunfish 5y ago
  "The point is obvious. There is more than one way to burn a book. And the world is full of people running about with lit matches. Every minority, be it Baptist/Unitarian, Irish/Italian/Octogenarian/Zen Buddhist, Zionist/Seventh-day Adventist, Women’s Lib/Republican, Mattachine/Four Square Gospel feels it has the will, the right, the duty to douse the kerosene, light the fuse. Every dimwit editor who sees himself as the source of all dreary blanc-mange plain-porridge unleavened literature licks his guillotine and eyes the neck of any author who dares to speak above a whisper or write above a nursery rhyme." Ray Bradbury
- selimthegrim 5y ago
  I suppose if I say Xi Jinping should go to hoosegow I’m stepping in it too?
- mdoms 5y ago
  What?! "Kowtowing" has absolutely no racist connotation whatsoever! You're a lunatic.
  - dang 5y ago
    Please don't make things even worse with personal attacks and name-calling. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Edit: we've had to ask you this kind of thing many times before. If you keep it up we will have to ban you. Also, would you please stop posting unsubstantive comments generally? You've been doing it a lot, unfortunately, and it's not what this site is supposed to be for.

Then use "prostrate", or "abject submission" when means the same thing, more or less. English already has words for this! It is not about accuracy, but about language that is stereotypically reserved for when talking about China, and to my ears, it comes off as a bit racist, tbh.

MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago
磕頭 is the Chinese word "Kowtow" basically meaning "submission" or "prostrate." Yet For some reason, the fact that the Chinese employed this method of submission on others was okay, but when we use it on the context of China forcing it on Western countries, suddenly it's "racist." Whether I use the word the Chinese made or the use an English amalgamation of its meaning is irrelevant. There is absolutely nothing even remotely ethnocentric or bigoted in using the word. You are just an easily offended person.
- jonnycomputer 5y ago
  Are you writing in Chinese? No, you weren't. So the question is, what is the intent here? Would you have used the same word if, for example, the context was Brazil? or Russia? I think a little more self-reflection, rather than defensiveness is in order. Especially because the comment was intended to be helpful, and not a criticism. The original comment was getting downvoted, and I suggested what the reason might be.
  - OhWellLol 5y ago
    The intent is to reveal your linguistic hypochondria, which appears to be working very well.
    - jonnycomputer 5y ago
      Or just that I'm a little more aware? https://www.google.com/search?q=news+kowtow+-definition+-meaning+-etymology+-kowtowclothing+-clothes+-encyclopedia+-clothing https://www.google.com/search?q=news+kowtow+-definition+-mea... That's a google search. I just filter out definitions, references, and the clothing brand. Now look at it. Sure there are examples of the word kowtow used for other things. But its mostly about China. Because in the context of China, the word just suggests itself. But why? What does it add? What does it subtract. No one here wants to wrestle with that. Instead they get defensive.
      - OhWellLol 5y ago
        Oh goodie, using linguistic references from Google to justify accusatory paranoia. Let's play that game! https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?q=Kowtow&geo=US https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?q=Kowtow&geo=US I-I-I-is North Dakota a bastion of Chinese context!? Your conspiracy theory is not only nakedly annoying, but pointless until you address this very serious North Dakota problem.
  - MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago
    I call the Russian special forces Spetznaz and the Brazilian yearly festival Car-ni-val. Or when I am happy when bad happens to other people, I have schadenfreude. Did you also know most of English is comprised of loan words from other languages too? Or are you offended too that words like etiquette are actually french? So yes. I would use a word that the said culture would say themselves.
    - jonnycomputer 5y ago
      Yeah, well that's fine and all. But you're also not exactly talking about the ancient Chinese practice of submitting to the Emperor either. There are no Chinese emperors, and kowtow is not a contemporary custom. So, no, you aren't doing what you are saying you are doing. You are using the word to have the meaning it has acquired in Europe and America. So why is it that when we talk about Western relationships with China the word kowtow comes up so often? What does it add? Why does it suggest itself? Maybe wrestle with that for a while. This isn't about you.
      - mooseburger 5y ago
        > What does it add? Why does it suggest itself? What do you think it does? No idea where you're going with this.
      - Uberphallus 5y ago
        > kowtow is not a contemporary custom It's rare as a protocolary practice, but it's still part of the culture. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-35553120 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-35553120
      - dang 5y ago
        Would you please not perpetuate flamewars on HN? I understand how the same word can land differently with different people. To the extent that you're making a factual argument, it's fine to make the point. Unfortunately you also started a flamewar with loaded language and since then have crossed into personal attack and blaming others for what is clearly a co-creation. It's definitely not easy to avoid mixing these things but if we're to have thoughtful discussion, we all need to try. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - jyrkesh 5y ago
    I would have. English is a frankenstein language, adopting words from all sorts of different languages. Kowtow means what it means in English, it's a perfectly reasonable word to have used there. I tried really hard to see if this wasn't the case, but the consensus across the web seems to align with this SO post: https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/314900/does-kowtow-have-racist-connotations https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/314900/does-kowt... IMO, he was being downvoted because this particular instance is just as much a show of kowtowing to the US government as the Chinese government.
    - jonnycomputer 5y ago
      The accepted answer reads, "In light of all this, the fuller answer is that because the term is recognisably ethnic, using kowtow instead of (say) grovel does carry some racist overtones, particularly when applied to someone interacting with a person of a different ethnicity."
- dang 5y ago
  Crossing into personal attack and nationalistic flamewar is definitely not cool here so please don't. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
acrobatsunfish 5y ago
"The point is obvious. There is more than one way to burn a book. And the world is full of people running about with lit matches. Every minority, be it Baptist/Unitarian, Irish/Italian/Octogenarian/Zen Buddhist, Zionist/Seventh-day Adventist, Women’s Lib/Republican, Mattachine/Four Square Gospel feels it has the will, the right, the duty to douse the kerosene, light the fuse. Every dimwit editor who sees himself as the source of all dreary blanc-mange plain-porridge unleavened literature licks his guillotine and eyes the neck of any author who dares to speak above a whisper or write above a nursery rhyme." Ray Bradbury
selimthegrim 5y ago
I suppose if I say Xi Jinping should go to hoosegow I’m stepping in it too?
mdoms 5y ago
What?! "Kowtowing" has absolutely no racist connotation whatsoever! You're a lunatic.
- dang 5y ago
  Please don't make things even worse with personal attacks and name-calling. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Edit: we've had to ask you this kind of thing many times before. If you keep it up we will have to ban you. Also, would you please stop posting unsubstantive comments generally? You've been doing it a lot, unfortunately, and it's not what this site is supposed to be for.