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I have a feeling that even in North America, ham radio regulation is essentially anti-revolution legislation. In other discussions on HN I’ve had responses sug

I have a feeling that even in North America, ham radio regulation is essentially anti-revolution legislation. In other discussions on HN I’ve had responses suggesting that it’s simply to ensure that e.g. kids don’t disrupt emergency bands. It seems similar to anti-gun legislation which also appears to a type of anti-revolution legislation despite being positioned as a measure to reduce school shootings.

JKCalhoun 5y ago
You lost me when you compared it to gun control.
- innocentoldguy 5y ago
  Probably because you haven't read the Constitution, Bill of Rights, and Federalist Papers.
  - sweetheart 5y ago
    Why so hostile? What does that bring to the table?
    - innocentoldguy 5y ago
      Hostile? I don't know what you mean.
      - AnimalMuppet 5y ago
        You assume they are ignorant of the Constitution, rather than assuming that they didn't understand your statement, or event that your statement was less than clear. That's at least uncharitable.
        innocentoldguy 5y ago
        Aren't you making assumptions about my comment and motivations? What you're assuming is incorrect.
  - google234123 5y ago
    Where is ham radio mentioned in the Constitution?
    - innocentoldguy 5y ago
      The parent spoke about ham radio legislation and gun control legislation as being anti-revolution legislation. The person I responded to said the parent lost him at gun control. Since he/she didn't seem to get the connection, I replied that this is because they haven't read the Constitution, Bill of Rights, and Federalist Papers. After all, the entire point of the 2nd Amendment is so that US Citizens can overthrow the government; so, obviously, any legislation against the 2nd Amendment would be, by definition, anti-revolution legislation.
- edrxty 5y ago
  It's less stupid than it sounds. The biggest part of it is a ban on encryption for hams and language making true spread spectrum difficult. These are the two biggest components to making radio resistant to interference by the state (eavesdropping and jamming).
  - whatshisface 5y ago
    I think it's much easier to explain given the practical necessity of stopping unscrupulous commercial operators from blasting out encrypted binary frequency-hopping messages to customers that clog up the hobbyist's space while not benefiting the community at all.
    - edrxty 5y ago
      I'm well aware of this argument but in practice it doesn't work like that. Other countries don't have encryption bans and are fine as you're always required to ID. The nice business band radios you see in the US are often encryption capable and they're allowed to use it on their bands so nothing is stopping them from bleeding into the ham bands (the business radios are wideband enough for this). The reality is the FCC is scared of civilian encryption adoption as evidenced by the lack of any encrypted civilian bands outside of the business/police segments.
      - jcalvinowens 5y ago
        The FCC does not care if you use encryption, they just want you to pay for the spectrum. As you observed, radios that can do this are commonly available, you just can't use them on ham bands. IMHO, that's not unreasonable: if you can program a radio, you can figure out how to reserve the spectrum with the FCC too. Encryption not allowed on ham bands because it makes enforcing non-commercial use impossible. It's as simple as that, no conspiracy theory about "suppressing revolution" is necessary to explain it.
    - hugosbaseball 5y ago
      I suspect the FCC regulations around spread spectrum, bitrate, and encryption were more about espionage. https://hackaday.com/2018/11/26/fcc-gets-complaint-proposed-ham-radio-rules-hurt-national-security/ https://hackaday.com/2018/11/26/fcc-gets-complaint-proposed-... Furthermore, the encryption ban is not specific to ham radio. The guvmin't just wants to be able to listen in, and do so easily.
reedjosh 5y ago
I have a feeling that even in North America, schooling is just a way to dumb down the public and is essentially anti-revolutionary legislation despite being positioned as a measure to improve education of the populace. Not /s btw, completely serious. I will be home schooling my children. Also, gotta lova Bo Burnham https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jpmgFp46_E&t=112s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jpmgFp46_E&t=112s
milesdyson_phd 5y ago
I imagine in a revolution you don't care about regulations...
- edrxty 5y ago
  As I mentioned elsewhere one of the big parts of this is a ban on encryption and heavy regulations on spread spectrum. Obviously a sufficiently capable person could implement these trivially but it hampers mass adoption. If nobody has encryption and jam resistance before a revolution, for sure nobody is going to after one starts as the types of portable radios we're talking about are not particularly modifiable.
- shadofx 5y ago
  Injecting estrogen into a pregnant woman during childbirth won't stop the child from coming out, but doing so prior to implantation can disrupt the process and prevent a pregnancy and therefore motherhood.
  - wizzwizz4 5y ago
    This analogy demonstrates that you understand the situation well… but it's a really tortured analogy. Can you think of a better one?
- ashtonkem 5y ago
  Setting aside whether OP is right about this specific legislation, generally anti-revolution legislation is about making it harder for people to prepare and organize before they start. They obviously don’t do squat once a Revolution has broken out, but that’s not the point.
- hugosbaseball 5y ago
  Yeah...if it's about suppressing revolutions then it's a bit weird the FCC is letting a lot of people run around breaking the encryption and bitrate regulations.
rhcom2 5y ago
Does this kind of just go with the fantasy that there will be some major revolution and hams will be the only way to communicate? Same with some gun owners fantasy that one day they'll need their small arms to overthrow the state? It just all seems so unrealistic to me. This video shows Cuba, a country with practically no military budget compared to the US, jamming hams without problem - but the fantasy goes that somehow it would be the last bastion of free communication in the event of a American revolution? The same with gun control, that the fact you can only get a 12 round magazine instead of the 30 round magazine is going to make a difference in "the revolution"? Not even getting to the point that if by focusing on preparing for a destructive revolution you begin to give up on fixing things through the political process.
- influx 5y ago
  So what's your stance? We shouldn't allow individuals to operate ham radios or provide to their own self defense because it doesn't matter anyway? Every organism has the right for self defense and communication, whether you or a government agrees with it.
  - jpcooper 5y ago
    Rights are an arbitrary human construct.
    - ghoward 5y ago
      So the right to life is a human construct? That means that it is totally okay for the police to shoot everyone they don't like. Rights are not a human construct; they are inalienable, given by a Creator, and we will be accountable to Him for stepping on the rights of others, and He expects us to do what we can to preserve the rights of others as well.
      - wizzwizz4 5y ago
        > So the right to life is a human construct? That means that it is totally okay for the police to shoot everyone they don't like. No, it doesn't. Language is a human construct,¹ and yet there's yaught bleep mÜOL87 øō°0o. So something being a human construct doesn't mean you can safely ignore it. ¹: Esperanto, at least, is a human construct.
nullc 5y ago
That doesn't compute. In some revolution you'd ignore the regulations. Prior to the revolution the regulations give you ample freedom to use the radio to become expert at using it. This is doubly true because ham licensees are permitted to build their own equipment or modify their equipment and use the modified equipment on the air.
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  The point is to use regulation to preemptively prevent the proliferation of the infrastructure and tools that will be used to overthrow you. >Prior to the revolution the regulations give you ample freedom to use the radio to become expert at using it. So long as you do it on their terms. And their terms include barriers to entry which tend to prevent the parts of society with the least to use from participating. If there's not a bunch of people with little to lose sitting around with the means to revolt it's much less likely that there will be a revolt. And making sure people don't have the means is a lot easier than making sure people have something to lose.
  - nullc 5y ago
    In the US ham licensing cost fairly little $15 for the short multiple choice test to $0 -- depending on where you get licensed. All the needed study material is available for free online. Compared to the cost of a radio that shouldn't be a major barrier. I think the most support I could give your argument is that convicted felons are barred from getting licensed. I think that is an unnecessary and inappropriate restriction -- and ones with obvious discriminatory consequences considering the race/gender/economic biases in who gets charged and convicted of crimes. But it's a bit hard to lobby against because there are creeps that try to use the radio to meet kids and that felon restriction is one of the tools people use against that.

JKCalhoun 5y ago

You lost me when you compared it to gun control.

innocentoldguy 5y ago
Probably because you haven't read the Constitution, Bill of Rights, and Federalist Papers.
- sweetheart 5y ago
  Why so hostile? What does that bring to the table?
  - innocentoldguy 5y ago
    Hostile? I don't know what you mean.
    - AnimalMuppet 5y ago
      You assume they are ignorant of the Constitution, rather than assuming that they didn't understand your statement, or event that your statement was less than clear. That's at least uncharitable.
      - innocentoldguy 5y ago
        Aren't you making assumptions about my comment and motivations? What you're assuming is incorrect.
- google234123 5y ago
  Where is ham radio mentioned in the Constitution?
  - innocentoldguy 5y ago
    The parent spoke about ham radio legislation and gun control legislation as being anti-revolution legislation. The person I responded to said the parent lost him at gun control. Since he/she didn't seem to get the connection, I replied that this is because they haven't read the Constitution, Bill of Rights, and Federalist Papers. After all, the entire point of the 2nd Amendment is so that US Citizens can overthrow the government; so, obviously, any legislation against the 2nd Amendment would be, by definition, anti-revolution legislation.
edrxty 5y ago
It's less stupid than it sounds. The biggest part of it is a ban on encryption for hams and language making true spread spectrum difficult. These are the two biggest components to making radio resistant to interference by the state (eavesdropping and jamming).
- whatshisface 5y ago
  I think it's much easier to explain given the practical necessity of stopping unscrupulous commercial operators from blasting out encrypted binary frequency-hopping messages to customers that clog up the hobbyist's space while not benefiting the community at all.
  - edrxty 5y ago
    I'm well aware of this argument but in practice it doesn't work like that. Other countries don't have encryption bans and are fine as you're always required to ID. The nice business band radios you see in the US are often encryption capable and they're allowed to use it on their bands so nothing is stopping them from bleeding into the ham bands (the business radios are wideband enough for this). The reality is the FCC is scared of civilian encryption adoption as evidenced by the lack of any encrypted civilian bands outside of the business/police segments.
    - jcalvinowens 5y ago
      The FCC does not care if you use encryption, they just want you to pay for the spectrum. As you observed, radios that can do this are commonly available, you just can't use them on ham bands. IMHO, that's not unreasonable: if you can program a radio, you can figure out how to reserve the spectrum with the FCC too. Encryption not allowed on ham bands because it makes enforcing non-commercial use impossible. It's as simple as that, no conspiracy theory about "suppressing revolution" is necessary to explain it.
  - hugosbaseball 5y ago
    I suspect the FCC regulations around spread spectrum, bitrate, and encryption were more about espionage. https://hackaday.com/2018/11/26/fcc-gets-complaint-proposed-ham-radio-rules-hurt-national-security/ https://hackaday.com/2018/11/26/fcc-gets-complaint-proposed-... Furthermore, the encryption ban is not specific to ham radio. The guvmin't just wants to be able to listen in, and do so easily.

reedjosh 5y ago

I have a feeling that even in North America, schooling is just a way to dumb down the public and is essentially anti-revolutionary legislation despite being positioned as a measure to improve education of the populace. Not /s btw, completely serious. I will be home schooling my children. Also, gotta lova Bo Burnham https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jpmgFp46_E&t=112s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jpmgFp46_E&t=112s

milesdyson_phd 5y ago

I imagine in a revolution you don't care about regulations...

edrxty 5y ago
As I mentioned elsewhere one of the big parts of this is a ban on encryption and heavy regulations on spread spectrum. Obviously a sufficiently capable person could implement these trivially but it hampers mass adoption. If nobody has encryption and jam resistance before a revolution, for sure nobody is going to after one starts as the types of portable radios we're talking about are not particularly modifiable.
shadofx 5y ago
Injecting estrogen into a pregnant woman during childbirth won't stop the child from coming out, but doing so prior to implantation can disrupt the process and prevent a pregnancy and therefore motherhood.
- wizzwizz4 5y ago
  This analogy demonstrates that you understand the situation well… but it's a really tortured analogy. Can you think of a better one?
ashtonkem 5y ago
Setting aside whether OP is right about this specific legislation, generally anti-revolution legislation is about making it harder for people to prepare and organize before they start. They obviously don’t do squat once a Revolution has broken out, but that’s not the point.
hugosbaseball 5y ago
Yeah...if it's about suppressing revolutions then it's a bit weird the FCC is letting a lot of people run around breaking the encryption and bitrate regulations.

rhcom2 5y ago

Does this kind of just go with the fantasy that there will be some major revolution and hams will be the only way to communicate? Same with some gun owners fantasy that one day they'll need their small arms to overthrow the state? It just all seems so unrealistic to me. This video shows Cuba, a country with practically no military budget compared to the US, jamming hams without problem - but the fantasy goes that somehow it would be the last bastion of free communication in the event of a American revolution? The same with gun control, that the fact you can only get a 12 round magazine instead of the 30 round magazine is going to make a difference in "the revolution"? Not even getting to the point that if by focusing on preparing for a destructive revolution you begin to give up on fixing things through the political process.

influx 5y ago
So what's your stance? We shouldn't allow individuals to operate ham radios or provide to their own self defense because it doesn't matter anyway? Every organism has the right for self defense and communication, whether you or a government agrees with it.
- jpcooper 5y ago
  Rights are an arbitrary human construct.
  - ghoward 5y ago
    So the right to life is a human construct? That means that it is totally okay for the police to shoot everyone they don't like. Rights are not a human construct; they are inalienable, given by a Creator, and we will be accountable to Him for stepping on the rights of others, and He expects us to do what we can to preserve the rights of others as well.
    - wizzwizz4 5y ago
      > So the right to life is a human construct? That means that it is totally okay for the police to shoot everyone they don't like. No, it doesn't. Language is a human construct,¹ and yet there's yaught bleep mÜOL87 øō°0o. So something being a human construct doesn't mean you can safely ignore it. ¹: Esperanto, at least, is a human construct.

nullc 5y ago

That doesn't compute. In some revolution you'd ignore the regulations. Prior to the revolution the regulations give you ample freedom to use the radio to become expert at using it. This is doubly true because ham licensees are permitted to build their own equipment or modify their equipment and use the modified equipment on the air.

throwaway0a5e 5y ago
The point is to use regulation to preemptively prevent the proliferation of the infrastructure and tools that will be used to overthrow you. >Prior to the revolution the regulations give you ample freedom to use the radio to become expert at using it. So long as you do it on their terms. And their terms include barriers to entry which tend to prevent the parts of society with the least to use from participating. If there's not a bunch of people with little to lose sitting around with the means to revolt it's much less likely that there will be a revolt. And making sure people don't have the means is a lot easier than making sure people have something to lose.
- nullc 5y ago
  In the US ham licensing cost fairly little $15 for the short multiple choice test to $0 -- depending on where you get licensed. All the needed study material is available for free online. Compared to the cost of a radio that shouldn't be a major barrier. I think the most support I could give your argument is that convicted felons are barred from getting licensed. I think that is an unnecessary and inappropriate restriction -- and ones with obvious discriminatory consequences considering the race/gender/economic biases in who gets charged and convicted of crimes. But it's a bit hard to lobby against because there are creeps that try to use the radio to meet kids and that felon restriction is one of the tools people use against that.