5 ms·

How Amazon turned a generation against labor

38 points by gstipi 5y ago

aiisahik 5y ago
It wasn't Amazon that did this. It was a generation of us growing up and realizing that all parts of the economy that used unionized labor in the US was slow, expensive, inefficient and unable to progress. - government agencies - construction - public transportation - the people at the post office Every time i interacted with people in these fields i silently thought this person would have been fired if they worked in the private sector
- supercanuck 5y ago
  -nursing -teachers -police -firefighters -professional athletes -engineers How would you have even know these people were "Unions" if it wasn't already a mindset going in.
  - voxic11 5y ago
    I certainly would have known teachers and police are unionized. Its very clear when interacting with them.
    - supercanuck 5y ago
      What behaviors do you associate with Unions?
      - deregulateMed 5y ago
        Laziness
  - deregulateMed 5y ago
    Engineers aren't unionized. Physicians on the other hand are unionized in all but name.
- bumby 5y ago
  While I think unions have their own evils, it's somewhat interesting to me that the sectors you listed are some of the more promising ways to be middle-class within the U.S. without concern for outsourcing. Anecdotally, my area of the country recently changed from government postal workers to contractors. The service has gotten much, much worse since the change. So while it may be true that it's easier to be fired in the private sector, I'm not sure that corresponds to better service.
  - injb 5y ago
    You're right, privatization doesn't automatically have to lead to an improvement. Incentives are what lead to the outcome being good or bad. The trouble is that it's virtually impossible for governments and unions to have the kind of incentive structure we want. With the private sector, it's possible, due to competition. Remove the competition, and private business will instantly get as bad or worse. In fairness to unions, I'd say most of the services the OP listed are bad mainly because they're the government, and not mainly because they're unionized. Obviously government cannot have any competition (when they do, that's called "war"). Therefore they have the most perverse incentive structures of any organization. Unions tend to oppose competition, but not with anything like the same effectiveness as governments.
    - throwaway894345 5y ago
      I've also heard that Europeans really like their unions, while Americans tend not to. I'm of the impression that European unions are structured differently and they tend not to have the same sorts of problems. That said, European companies also don't strike me as particularly productive relative to American companies; though I'm sure that's not down to unions alone, productivity isn't everything, etc.
    - bumby 5y ago
      I agree with you on the incentives part and that's also why I'm apprehensive about public unions. I'm uncomfortable with the idea of a civil "servant" being able to strike and remove services, particularly those the government has a monopoly over. I'd like to think a democracy has better mechanism to manage civil servant disputes. But I disagree that it's "virtually impossible" for unions to have the right incentives in the private sector. I previously worked in the automotive sector and the unions were incentivized to come to the table and adjust their previously agreed upon contract for the feasibility of the business back during the financial crisis. They knew if they took too hard of a line, it meant the company would not survive and that contract was worthless. Public unions, it seems, are a different animal though.
- imbnwa 5y ago
  I mean how much of the private sector, all without the input of unionized labor, isn't at least two of slow, expensive, inefficient, and unable to progress? Sometimes I feel like there's this romanticization of the agility of private enterprise when that attribute really applies to a considerably smaller number. Just for example, any discussion of Agile SCRUM on this board illuminates startling differences in efficiency and drive between various companies
  - throwaway894345 5y ago
    The vibe I get from growing up around unions, having friends and family in union jobs now, working with unions, etc is that enterprises and larger companies feel slow and lumbering if your experience is startups or growth-stage companies; however, (American) union shops and government agencies are in their own league. I'm not solidly opposed to unions in general or in the Amazon case in particular, but I do think there's merit in the idea that American unions (I hear European unions are organized differently and don't have the same problems) lead to the most bizarre, inefficient, and counterproductive work environments.
- laurent92 5y ago
  And, like a mirror, there is also a distrust of the capitalistically disorganized crowd-of-small-traders: Taxis which were so distrustworthy and dysfunctional that everyone prefers using them through Uber; Internet small shops (people prefer the same shop through Amazon); the litany of small individual hotels (people seem to prefer the stamp of AirBnb), etc. As a capitalism myself, I’m always dissatisfied on how everything produced in mass turns into the untrustworthy mess of dollar shops, and good capitalism seems to require a bit of concentration.
- thatcat 5y ago
  Most unions are for professional work, plumbing, electrical work, writing, acting. Those are all just public sector jobs you named, not even necessarily unionized.
  - bumby 5y ago
    To be generous to the OP’s point, public unions have been growing while private union membership has been shrinking over the past decades. The majority of construction work is also generally done by private companies, even the project is funded with tax dollars.
- PragmaticPulp 5y ago
  I’m getting tired of reading these articles that portray Amazon warehouse employees as being too dumb to make their own decisions. We need to admit that the people who made these decisions are capable adults who can decide for themselves what they want to do. These opinion pieces that imply that Amazon workers were brainwashed or were simply wrong are distasteful. Let’s start having an honest conversation about why these people chose what they chose and stop pretending that they’re too dumb to have considered other options.
  - bumby 5y ago
    I’ve run into the same infantilism in HN discussions about the documentary “The Factory” and it strikes me as an elitist mindset.
  - majormajor 5y ago
    SO: Why do you think they chose what they chose? If you want to start that conversation, let's start it. I don't think it's gonna look good for conservative, anti-public-safety-net types...
    - bumby 5y ago
      Not the OP, but here’s how I’ve seen it framed. Those employees against unionization arent stupid. They are often in dying industrial towns and they know they may scare away further industry by unionizing. Meaning, they (and their town) will ultimately be worse off. Its a pragmatic assessment between the lesser of two evils. There’s also a moral component. They generally take these jobs because it’s better than the alternative offers they have in the table and that it’s fair given the circumstances. They may feel it’s ungrateful to push back just because they can. It’s possible to vote against your own self interest on moral grounds (see: wealthy people who vote for more progressive taxation). While I may not agree with those perspectives, it would give me pause to think I am uniquely more qualified to assess their own situation. So why do you think you know more than they do about their own circumstances?
      - majormajor 5y ago
- majormajor 5y ago
  Yeah, this is the conservative pro-paying-people-less-money talking point, and I don't see the connection to Amazon, but which union do I have to blame for terrible customer service at Google? At least at the DMV someone will talk to me, even if it's slow sometime...
gstipi 5y ago
I found this bit particularly revealing: "Amazon’s most effective union-busting tactic was requiring employees to attend so-called captive audience meetings. The presentations were a study in psychological projection. Amazon, a publicly traded for-profit corporation that maximizes shareholder value and refers to its employees as “associates,” was presented as a “family.” Meanwhile, unions—nonprofit organizations whose members call each other “brother” and “sister” and who elect their own leaders—were framed as businesses run by “bosses.” The workers were told that the union, being a business, had come to Bessemer only to squeeze a profit out of them, whereas Amazon, being a family, had arrived to aid a struggling community."
- wombatmobile 5y ago
  The propaganda wouldn't work on its own unless the employees were dumb or mindless, which they aren't. They are intelligent human beings who want to look after their self-interest, just like everyone else. So, what is in their self-interest? The last paragraph of the article gives the bigger picture. It identifies the stark difference between the blue collar work environment of yesteryear's steel industry, and today. Today, an unskilled worker doesn't face the prospect of being blue collar for life. There is no permanent employment at the steelworks or the motor vehicle company. Companies aren't permanent - they come and go. So instead of relatively secure, low paid blue collar careers, they are funnelled into warehouses, call centres, and sales, which is a pathway to entrepreneurship, however bleak or mild, or promising or exciting. Today's unskilled workers look out into the future and sees sink or swim - it's all up to themselves. That's not a recipe for collective bargaining - it's a recipe for looking after number 1.
linuxhansl 5y ago
Being born in Europe I always was a huge fan of unions, as agents to level the balance of power between employers and employees. The unions negotiate pay rates, safety procedures, benefits, etc, etc, and have the financial means to back the negotiations with strikes. After coming to US I became less enthusiastic. Unions seem to frequently go overboard. For example only union workers being allowed to plug power cords into the outlets at trade-shows - at great cost - and similar shenanigans that basically seem to only increase cost and reduce productivity. Some of the resentment against unions is self-inflicted. Perhaps that was and is historically needed here in the US...?
- csa 5y ago
  > For example only union workers being allowed to plug power cords into the outlets at trade-shows - at great cost - and similar shenanigans that basically seem to only increase cost and reduce productivity. The fee for the electrician union member includes an inspection component, and imho it’s worth it. This fee may sound unreasonable until you hear the story about some dipshit with huge power requirements and/or a daisy-chained nightmare plug their stuff in and cause problems for everyone — in a worst case scenario, cause a fire. Source: a friend of mine who is an electrician who explained this to me. Your idea that unions go overboard in the US may hold water, but I don’t think that this example is the poster child.
  - a_conservative 5y ago
    All of the risks you just described exists in every home with electrical outlets.
    - pwg 5y ago
      Except the risks are multiplied by 200 (or by however many "display booths" there are).
  - bumby 5y ago
    You make a good point, but I read the GP differently. I’ve also experienced where engineers are threatened with a union grievance for similar actions. It’s not just a case of a union protecting against a non-skilled install, it’s often about a union protecting its own self interests
desktopninja 5y ago
For the life of me I can't remember the Simpson's episode on this very topic. But there is one and it was super accurate as always.

38 points by gstipi 5y ago

It wasn't Amazon that did this. It was a generation of us growing up and realizing that all parts of the economy that used unionized labor in the US was slow, expensive, inefficient and unable to progress. - government agencies - construction - public transportation - the people at the post office Every time i interacted with people in these fields i silently thought this person would have been fired if they worked in the private sector

supercanuck 5y ago
-nursing -teachers -police -firefighters -professional athletes -engineers How would you have even know these people were "Unions" if it wasn't already a mindset going in.
- voxic11 5y ago
  I certainly would have known teachers and police are unionized. Its very clear when interacting with them.
  - supercanuck 5y ago
    What behaviors do you associate with Unions?
    - deregulateMed 5y ago
      Laziness
- deregulateMed 5y ago
  Engineers aren't unionized. Physicians on the other hand are unionized in all but name.
bumby 5y ago
While I think unions have their own evils, it's somewhat interesting to me that the sectors you listed are some of the more promising ways to be middle-class within the U.S. without concern for outsourcing. Anecdotally, my area of the country recently changed from government postal workers to contractors. The service has gotten much, much worse since the change. So while it may be true that it's easier to be fired in the private sector, I'm not sure that corresponds to better service.
- injb 5y ago
  You're right, privatization doesn't automatically have to lead to an improvement. Incentives are what lead to the outcome being good or bad. The trouble is that it's virtually impossible for governments and unions to have the kind of incentive structure we want. With the private sector, it's possible, due to competition. Remove the competition, and private business will instantly get as bad or worse. In fairness to unions, I'd say most of the services the OP listed are bad mainly because they're the government, and not mainly because they're unionized. Obviously government cannot have any competition (when they do, that's called "war"). Therefore they have the most perverse incentive structures of any organization. Unions tend to oppose competition, but not with anything like the same effectiveness as governments.
  - throwaway894345 5y ago
    I've also heard that Europeans really like their unions, while Americans tend not to. I'm of the impression that European unions are structured differently and they tend not to have the same sorts of problems. That said, European companies also don't strike me as particularly productive relative to American companies; though I'm sure that's not down to unions alone, productivity isn't everything, etc.
  - bumby 5y ago
    I agree with you on the incentives part and that's also why I'm apprehensive about public unions. I'm uncomfortable with the idea of a civil "servant" being able to strike and remove services, particularly those the government has a monopoly over. I'd like to think a democracy has better mechanism to manage civil servant disputes. But I disagree that it's "virtually impossible" for unions to have the right incentives in the private sector. I previously worked in the automotive sector and the unions were incentivized to come to the table and adjust their previously agreed upon contract for the feasibility of the business back during the financial crisis. They knew if they took too hard of a line, it meant the company would not survive and that contract was worthless. Public unions, it seems, are a different animal though.
imbnwa 5y ago
I mean how much of the private sector, all without the input of unionized labor, isn't at least two of slow, expensive, inefficient, and unable to progress? Sometimes I feel like there's this romanticization of the agility of private enterprise when that attribute really applies to a considerably smaller number. Just for example, any discussion of Agile SCRUM on this board illuminates startling differences in efficiency and drive between various companies
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  The vibe I get from growing up around unions, having friends and family in union jobs now, working with unions, etc is that enterprises and larger companies feel slow and lumbering if your experience is startups or growth-stage companies; however, (American) union shops and government agencies are in their own league. I'm not solidly opposed to unions in general or in the Amazon case in particular, but I do think there's merit in the idea that American unions (I hear European unions are organized differently and don't have the same problems) lead to the most bizarre, inefficient, and counterproductive work environments.
laurent92 5y ago
And, like a mirror, there is also a distrust of the capitalistically disorganized crowd-of-small-traders: Taxis which were so distrustworthy and dysfunctional that everyone prefers using them through Uber; Internet small shops (people prefer the same shop through Amazon); the litany of small individual hotels (people seem to prefer the stamp of AirBnb), etc. As a capitalism myself, I’m always dissatisfied on how everything produced in mass turns into the untrustworthy mess of dollar shops, and good capitalism seems to require a bit of concentration.
thatcat 5y ago
Most unions are for professional work, plumbing, electrical work, writing, acting. Those are all just public sector jobs you named, not even necessarily unionized.
- bumby 5y ago
  To be generous to the OP’s point, public unions have been growing while private union membership has been shrinking over the past decades. The majority of construction work is also generally done by private companies, even the project is funded with tax dollars.
PragmaticPulp 5y ago
I’m getting tired of reading these articles that portray Amazon warehouse employees as being too dumb to make their own decisions. We need to admit that the people who made these decisions are capable adults who can decide for themselves what they want to do. These opinion pieces that imply that Amazon workers were brainwashed or were simply wrong are distasteful. Let’s start having an honest conversation about why these people chose what they chose and stop pretending that they’re too dumb to have considered other options.
- bumby 5y ago
  I’ve run into the same infantilism in HN discussions about the documentary “The Factory” and it strikes me as an elitist mindset.
- majormajor 5y ago
  SO: Why do you think they chose what they chose? If you want to start that conversation, let's start it. I don't think it's gonna look good for conservative, anti-public-safety-net types...
  - bumby 5y ago
    Not the OP, but here’s how I’ve seen it framed. Those employees against unionization arent stupid. They are often in dying industrial towns and they know they may scare away further industry by unionizing. Meaning, they (and their town) will ultimately be worse off. Its a pragmatic assessment between the lesser of two evils. There’s also a moral component. They generally take these jobs because it’s better than the alternative offers they have in the table and that it’s fair given the circumstances. They may feel it’s ungrateful to push back just because they can. It’s possible to vote against your own self interest on moral grounds (see: wealthy people who vote for more progressive taxation). While I may not agree with those perspectives, it would give me pause to think I am uniquely more qualified to assess their own situation. So why do you think you know more than they do about their own circumstances?
    - majormajor 5y ago
majormajor 5y ago
Yeah, this is the conservative pro-paying-people-less-money talking point, and I don't see the connection to Amazon, but which union do I have to blame for terrible customer service at Google? At least at the DMV someone will talk to me, even if it's slow sometime...

gstipi 5y ago

I found this bit particularly revealing: "Amazon’s most effective union-busting tactic was requiring employees to attend so-called captive audience meetings. The presentations were a study in psychological projection. Amazon, a publicly traded for-profit corporation that maximizes shareholder value and refers to its employees as “associates,” was presented as a “family.” Meanwhile, unions—nonprofit organizations whose members call each other “brother” and “sister” and who elect their own leaders—were framed as businesses run by “bosses.” The workers were told that the union, being a business, had come to Bessemer only to squeeze a profit out of them, whereas Amazon, being a family, had arrived to aid a struggling community."

wombatmobile 5y ago
The propaganda wouldn't work on its own unless the employees were dumb or mindless, which they aren't. They are intelligent human beings who want to look after their self-interest, just like everyone else. So, what is in their self-interest? The last paragraph of the article gives the bigger picture. It identifies the stark difference between the blue collar work environment of yesteryear's steel industry, and today. Today, an unskilled worker doesn't face the prospect of being blue collar for life. There is no permanent employment at the steelworks or the motor vehicle company. Companies aren't permanent - they come and go. So instead of relatively secure, low paid blue collar careers, they are funnelled into warehouses, call centres, and sales, which is a pathway to entrepreneurship, however bleak or mild, or promising or exciting. Today's unskilled workers look out into the future and sees sink or swim - it's all up to themselves. That's not a recipe for collective bargaining - it's a recipe for looking after number 1.

linuxhansl 5y ago

Being born in Europe I always was a huge fan of unions, as agents to level the balance of power between employers and employees. The unions negotiate pay rates, safety procedures, benefits, etc, etc, and have the financial means to back the negotiations with strikes. After coming to US I became less enthusiastic. Unions seem to frequently go overboard. For example only union workers being allowed to plug power cords into the outlets at trade-shows - at great cost - and similar shenanigans that basically seem to only increase cost and reduce productivity. Some of the resentment against unions is self-inflicted. Perhaps that was and is historically needed here in the US...?

csa 5y ago
> For example only union workers being allowed to plug power cords into the outlets at trade-shows - at great cost - and similar shenanigans that basically seem to only increase cost and reduce productivity. The fee for the electrician union member includes an inspection component, and imho it’s worth it. This fee may sound unreasonable until you hear the story about some dipshit with huge power requirements and/or a daisy-chained nightmare plug their stuff in and cause problems for everyone — in a worst case scenario, cause a fire. Source: a friend of mine who is an electrician who explained this to me. Your idea that unions go overboard in the US may hold water, but I don’t think that this example is the poster child.
- a_conservative 5y ago
  All of the risks you just described exists in every home with electrical outlets.
  - pwg 5y ago
    Except the risks are multiplied by 200 (or by however many "display booths" there are).
- bumby 5y ago
  You make a good point, but I read the GP differently. I’ve also experienced where engineers are threatened with a union grievance for similar actions. It’s not just a case of a union protecting against a non-skilled install, it’s often about a union protecting its own self interests

desktopninja 5y ago

For the life of me I can't remember the Simpson's episode on this very topic. But there is one and it was super accurate as always.