5 ms·

Technically they don't have that right. Detainment without reasonable suspicion, and arrest without probable cause, are crimes called Deprivation of Rights Unde

Technically they don't have that right. Detainment without reasonable suspicion, and arrest without probable cause, are crimes called Deprivation of Rights Under Color of Law. It is a felony punishable by up to ten years in prison. Funnily enough, if you've ever heard a cop say a variant of the phrase "you can beat the rap but not the ride", that is essentially admission of such criminal action by the cop...if they think that the evidence is sparse enough that you won't be charged with a crime, then they do not have probable cause grounds to arrest you, and by continuing with the arrest, they commit a felony. Unfortunately, we can probably count the number of cops charged with that crime on zero hands. I'm increasingly convinced that our entire police problem in the US boils down to our incentives that we give to prosecutors which make them avoid any attempt to hold cops accountable for their crimes. I'm not sure what the solution is, but having independent prosecutors for police crimes might be a good start. With regards to your point about cooperating until the cop starts acting adversarial, I think that advice applies to someone who is intelligent and informed about the law enough to understand when a cop is actually trying to coerce an admission. It might be good advice for you, but it might actually be terrible advice for someone else.

kbenson 5y ago
> I'm not sure what the solution is, but having independent prosecutors for police crimes might be a good start It would have to be an almost entirely separate career path once you stepped into it. Once you've prosecuted a few cops, I'm sure that will follow you as a prosecutor wherever you go, and good luck hiding it. Gotta either stay in that game or advance to the point you no longer need to work with cops (become a judge I guess)
- FireBeyond 5y ago
  The problem is if in doing your job you piss off the wrong cops, you too become a target. I'm a firefighter / paramedic. Cops have arrested paramedics providing patient care on accident scenes for varying slights. Cops have come to hospitals where their off-duty drunk buddy runs a red light and t-boned someone else, and demanded nurses do blood draws (without a warrant) of the other party looking for intoxication, and then arrested the nurse for refusing. All groups that (rightly or wrongly, I'm making no judgment here, just observing) are considered to be "on the same side", are only on that side as long as it is not inconvenient to those cops, then they're as much a target as anyone else.
  - boring_twenties 5y ago
    > Cops have come to hospitals where their off-duty drunk buddy runs a red light and t-boned someone else, and demanded nurses do blood draws (without a warrant) of the other party looking for intoxication, and then arrested the nurse for refusing. If you are referring to the incident in Salt Lake City, you might be pleased to know that the nurse in question ended up getting a $500,000 settlement: https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/11/01/561337106/utah-nurse-arrested-for-doing-her-job-reaches-500-000-settlement https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/11/01/561337106... edit: Oh, and the cop was fired, too.
    - darksaints 5y ago
      It should be noted that the cop claimed he did nothing wrong and sued for wrongful termination for $1.5M, and the police union, representing all of their officers, supported him. The Overton window that cops believe exists about acceptable cop behavior is unfathomably out of line with reality. That's the reason why police oppose citizen backed reviews of their conduct. Makes me wonder how many people with similar circumstances but less publicity get swept under the rug.
- darksaints 5y ago
  I think "I've put dozens of cops behind bars" would be an excellent sales pitch, as well as resume boost, for a criminal defense attorney.
jfengel 5y ago
Unfortunately, I am well aware that I don't know when they're trying to coerce an admission. One of the things I'm most terrified of is being asked "Do you know why I pulled you over?", and I can't think of any answer that doesn't have the potential to land me in a lot of trouble. I feel like that question is going to be hostile no matter what. I've been told by police that they don't use it, but didn't rule out the notion that others might. I've never had an encounter with the police worse than a basic traffic stop, so I've never really had to apply the "don't talk" advice. I hope I never do. Because I'm quite certain I'll do the wrong thing, regardless of what I do.
- mrguyorama 5y ago
  >"Do you know why I pulled you over?" The only safe answer to that, period, is "No". Even if you think the cop pulled you over because you were going 100 in a 55, you still don't know, it's not ever going to be a lie, and anything else can legitimately be taken as an admission of guilt in court
  - bloak 5y ago
    > "Do you know why I pulled you over?" On a scale from 1 to 10, how bad would it be to answer that with "Is it because I is black?" (© 1998-2021 Ali G)?

kbenson 5y ago

> I'm not sure what the solution is, but having independent prosecutors for police crimes might be a good start It would have to be an almost entirely separate career path once you stepped into it. Once you've prosecuted a few cops, I'm sure that will follow you as a prosecutor wherever you go, and good luck hiding it. Gotta either stay in that game or advance to the point you no longer need to work with cops (become a judge I guess)

FireBeyond 5y ago
The problem is if in doing your job you piss off the wrong cops, you too become a target. I'm a firefighter / paramedic. Cops have arrested paramedics providing patient care on accident scenes for varying slights. Cops have come to hospitals where their off-duty drunk buddy runs a red light and t-boned someone else, and demanded nurses do blood draws (without a warrant) of the other party looking for intoxication, and then arrested the nurse for refusing. All groups that (rightly or wrongly, I'm making no judgment here, just observing) are considered to be "on the same side", are only on that side as long as it is not inconvenient to those cops, then they're as much a target as anyone else.
- boring_twenties 5y ago
  > Cops have come to hospitals where their off-duty drunk buddy runs a red light and t-boned someone else, and demanded nurses do blood draws (without a warrant) of the other party looking for intoxication, and then arrested the nurse for refusing. If you are referring to the incident in Salt Lake City, you might be pleased to know that the nurse in question ended up getting a $500,000 settlement: https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/11/01/561337106/utah-nurse-arrested-for-doing-her-job-reaches-500-000-settlement https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/11/01/561337106... edit: Oh, and the cop was fired, too.
  - darksaints 5y ago
    It should be noted that the cop claimed he did nothing wrong and sued for wrongful termination for $1.5M, and the police union, representing all of their officers, supported him. The Overton window that cops believe exists about acceptable cop behavior is unfathomably out of line with reality. That's the reason why police oppose citizen backed reviews of their conduct. Makes me wonder how many people with similar circumstances but less publicity get swept under the rug.
darksaints 5y ago
I think "I've put dozens of cops behind bars" would be an excellent sales pitch, as well as resume boost, for a criminal defense attorney.

jfengel 5y ago

Unfortunately, I am well aware that I don't know when they're trying to coerce an admission. One of the things I'm most terrified of is being asked "Do you know why I pulled you over?", and I can't think of any answer that doesn't have the potential to land me in a lot of trouble. I feel like that question is going to be hostile no matter what. I've been told by police that they don't use it, but didn't rule out the notion that others might. I've never had an encounter with the police worse than a basic traffic stop, so I've never really had to apply the "don't talk" advice. I hope I never do. Because I'm quite certain I'll do the wrong thing, regardless of what I do.

mrguyorama 5y ago
>"Do you know why I pulled you over?" The only safe answer to that, period, is "No". Even if you think the cop pulled you over because you were going 100 in a 55, you still don't know, it's not ever going to be a lie, and anything else can legitimately be taken as an admission of guilt in court
- bloak 5y ago
  > "Do you know why I pulled you over?" On a scale from 1 to 10, how bad would it be to answer that with "Is it because I is black?" (© 1998-2021 Ali G)?