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Big difference is that the vast majority of people in China did not _choose_ to live under that model and can't easily try a different model to see which they l

Big difference is that the vast majority of people in China did not _choose_ to live under that model and can't easily try a different model to see which they like more.

bsedlm 5y ago
But neither did I "choose" to be born in a democratic republic with individual freedom (and a very corrupt state/political class) (note: I was not born in USA) ...so it's not all that different
- silicon2401 5y ago
  In the USA at least, you can't choose to be born there, but you can choose to be involved with the democratic process and even vehemently criticize the government at all levels. Not quite the same in China.
  - andrewzah 5y ago
    And it's working out great! Our infrastructure is falling apart, we can't get together and build infrastructure for public transportation, our healthcare system is abysmal, many policies make it quite expensive to be poor, etc. While our politicians cater to rich interests and strut about and soapbox about emotional issues, and focus on getting re-elected instead of what citizens care about. But I can criticize the state and federal government without going to jail, so there's that. Life is really great, so long as you find good paying jobs (sorry teachers, firefighters, EMTs...), avoid crushing debt from medical crises or frivolous lawsuits if you happen to interact with a power-tripping cop.
    - silicon2401 5y ago
      Yes, it is working out great, as shown by the millions of people who risk life and limb to come to the US and the billions who would move here yesterday if they had the chance. Things not being perfect here doesn't mean they're not better than a lot of other places, at least in some if not all ways. Comments like yours completely trivialize the much worse conditions that exist in other places. South Korea isn't perfect either, but it's still a way better place to be than North Korea.
      - andrewzah 5y ago
        I'm really tired of this argument of "people want to move to X country, so criticism is not possible of X country". I'm sure that many people want to move to China. I'm sure that many people want to move to X, Y, and Z developed countries. So what? Nothing useful is gained from comparing the US with some other country further down the rankings. The issues I mention are don't go away because X country has it worse than the US. Saying "well, X country has it worse" is just a deflection. I am -not- saying countries Y and Z are just so much better than the US. What I'm saying is what makes a country "good" or "desirable" is multi-faceted and very complex, much more complex than "does the government randomly arrest people or not". That is one factor, but that does not automatically make the US such a utopia. The many, serious problems the US has won't go away until we actually start addressing them as a nation, instead of deflecting by going "well, it mustn't be so bad since people want to move here".

Big difference is that the vast majority of people in China did not _choose_ to live under that model and can't easily try a different model to see which they like more.

bsedlm 5y ago

But neither did I "choose" to be born in a democratic republic with individual freedom (and a very corrupt state/political class) (note: I was not born in USA) ...so it's not all that different

silicon2401 5y ago
In the USA at least, you can't choose to be born there, but you can choose to be involved with the democratic process and even vehemently criticize the government at all levels. Not quite the same in China.
- andrewzah 5y ago
  And it's working out great! Our infrastructure is falling apart, we can't get together and build infrastructure for public transportation, our healthcare system is abysmal, many policies make it quite expensive to be poor, etc. While our politicians cater to rich interests and strut about and soapbox about emotional issues, and focus on getting re-elected instead of what citizens care about. But I can criticize the state and federal government without going to jail, so there's that. Life is really great, so long as you find good paying jobs (sorry teachers, firefighters, EMTs...), avoid crushing debt from medical crises or frivolous lawsuits if you happen to interact with a power-tripping cop.
  - silicon2401 5y ago
    Yes, it is working out great, as shown by the millions of people who risk life and limb to come to the US and the billions who would move here yesterday if they had the chance. Things not being perfect here doesn't mean they're not better than a lot of other places, at least in some if not all ways. Comments like yours completely trivialize the much worse conditions that exist in other places. South Korea isn't perfect either, but it's still a way better place to be than North Korea.
    - andrewzah 5y ago
      I'm really tired of this argument of "people want to move to X country, so criticism is not possible of X country". I'm sure that many people want to move to China. I'm sure that many people want to move to X, Y, and Z developed countries. So what? Nothing useful is gained from comparing the US with some other country further down the rankings. The issues I mention are don't go away because X country has it worse than the US. Saying "well, X country has it worse" is just a deflection. I am -not- saying countries Y and Z are just so much better than the US. What I'm saying is what makes a country "good" or "desirable" is multi-faceted and very complex, much more complex than "does the government randomly arrest people or not". That is one factor, but that does not automatically make the US such a utopia. The many, serious problems the US has won't go away until we actually start addressing them as a nation, instead of deflecting by going "well, it mustn't be so bad since people want to move here".