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I think the charitable answer is that bleeding edge process development is getting very hard and many exited/stumbled. IBM failed at 14nm too, and Intel which f
by cwizou 5y ago
I think the charitable answer is that bleeding edge process development is getting very hard and many exited/stumbled. IBM failed at 14nm too, and Intel which famously called itself 2 years in front of the rest of the industry for decades has been stumbling hard since 2015 and still hasn't really replaced their 14nm on the most visible parts of their lineup.
As to what failing means, it can be many things, sometimes you just have way too many defects to have the process be commercially viable (if your cost is 10x your competition and you can't fix it, you don't have a process), some bad technical choices because there's been less and less cross industry cooperation (things like the ITRS that gave a rough roadmap hasn't been a thing for a while, last I checked), and introducing new technologies (EUV or new metals) may compound those. Sometimes chips in your new process are more dense (which is good), but perform poorly because of one of the previously mentioned stuff to the point it's hard selling new chips that perform worse than previous gen. In Intel's 10nm case there was a bit of everything and it will be very interesting to know exactly what factored in more (Cobalt is often rumoured, a very overconfident choice for MPP was my initial understanding, I haven't really followed on this).
In the case of GloFo, it's perhaps simpler than that : GloFo was part since 2007 of an alliance between them (initially as AMD), IBM and Samsung called the Common Platform [1] that had more or less standardised a process, with a lot of the heavy research done by IBM (I would say, out of spite for Intel) and then used by GloFo and Samsung.
14nm was the first that everyone was on their own, because IBM failed their research. In the end, Samsung managed to get it done, and GloFo either failed or... didn't try really hard ? This is where I'm gonna speculate a tiny bit and be less charitable, I don't think that GloFo was sufficiently funded in terms of process development, despite their parent owner being able to.
And it definitely looked like from the outside, at least from my point of view, they were always in dire need of money except for acquisitions, and late with everything (including the process inherited from the alliance). Most of the business decisions done (including buying Chartered and reverse buying IBM's 22nm fabs) seemed to be about pure business and missed the technical understanding of the business and what it required to keep it going.
At the end of the day, for them, licensing 14 from Samsung was a great out of that mess. But that didn't happen for 10, and we (at least I) don't really know why. My guess is that GloFo would probably have been happy to keep going on with that arrangement, but I may be completely wrong on that one.
At the time I seem to recall that both had some issues filling up their order book (which seems a bit insane today, considering the current shortage) and that may have played into it from Samsung's point of view.
[1](https://www.chiphistory.org/546-ibm-microelectronics-common-platform-a-new-business-model https://www.chiphistory.org/546-ibm-microelectronics-common-...)
- csharptwdec19 5y ago> 14nm was the first that everyone was on their own, because IBM failed their research. In the end, Samsung managed to get it done, and GloFo either failed or... didn't try really hard ? This is where I'm gonna speculate a tiny bit and be less charitable, I don't think that GloFo was sufficiently funded in terms of process development, despite their parent owner being able to. For whatever it's worth, it feels like GloFo has had various process issues for a -long- time. While there were issues with the Bulldozer design itself from a deep pipeline perspective etc, the other factor in it's lukewarm lifetime (especially the first couple gens) was issues with GloFo's processes even back then. I know some of that was that they were trying to gear more towards bulk silicon vs CPUs but I think there were other issues too.
- cwizou 5y ago> While there were issues with the Bulldozer design itself from a deep pipeline perspective etc, the other factor in it's lukewarm lifetime (especially the first couple gens) was issues with GloFo's processes even back then. I think no process could have saved Bulldozer for AMD, it truly was a deeply flawed design IMO, but yep GloFo certainly didn't help. I think my "uncharitable" take was a bit too kind considering. Specifically in the case of AMD, GloFo relied early on on guaranteed income from AMD through the Wafer Supply Agreement which was stupidly tight (my understanding is that it was part of the deal of selling to Mudabala, though exact details are not public), included a massive volume of must buy from AMD, and didn't include any penalties for GloFo missing deadlines or having their processes underperforming. They definitely coasted on this and I should probably have mentioned this above, since it led to many of their issues going forward till 14nm. It took them years to manage to loosen the WSA up, the last step was (if I recall correctly ?) loosening the CPU core exclusive that I believe was part of it (they had a carve out for GPUs which were built at TSMC at the time of the sale, though that was supposed to be phased out if my memory is correct, before it was renegociated and AMD moved the low end GPUs there instead, except maybe one gen?). To their credit, AMD pretty much never bad mouthed GloFo in public. Managing to do the original Ryzen at GloFo and getting as much out of the 14 process that they did is, I think, one of the most underrated engineering tour de force from those who worked on that. While supposedly "copied exact" from Samsung, it wasn't exactly fully there at the time. I did read that the last renegotiated WSA between AMD and GloFo is supposed to be going on till 2024 (?) currently, so if this goes through, I hope there's a "in case of sale" carve out, if just so anyone can save face a bit ;) (and that would be a pretty large unburden from AMD in any case, which makes the whole thing even more ironic)