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Wouldn't it be easier to raise funds and lobby Congress to get laws passed to make insulin basically free in the US and defacto pushing that globally? Trying t

Wouldn't it be easier to raise funds and lobby Congress to get laws passed to make insulin basically free in the US and defacto pushing that globally? Trying to make your own has a lot of steps that need to go right or people die. You also have to deal with regulators.

pankajdoharey 5y ago
Yes thats the right way, making Healthcare free for all is the only way, US has to learn from Canadians, Brits or dozen other EU countries.
- consp 5y ago
  "free" is relative. For instance we have a tax on chronically ill people here called "eigenrisico" (literally your own risk) which is not a tax but is meant for people to not seek help unless it is absolutely necessary and then pay for the cost. Some things are excluded but as soon as you need more than basic help or any medicine it comes into play. So it's a tax on being ill in all but name since it resets every year. So "free" comes in many forms, not all single player.
  - caddybox 5y ago
    I'd be wary of calling it a tax. As you pointed out it's an amount large enough to warr off spurious medical needs and small enough that if you're really injured or suffering, it can be extremely helpful and is a miniscule part of your medical fees. What's broken is the huisarts system where any efforts to get specialized care when you're in pain must pass through your GP. This often leads to a longer waiting period that can be excruciatingly painful for some.
    - relaxing 5y ago
      In the US it’s called “needing a referral.”
      - kube-system 5y ago
        The literally translated equivalent in the US is a “deductible”.
        sebmellen 5y ago
        “Eigenrisico” yes, but the Huisarts system is what GP was referring to as being analogous to “needing a referral”.
  - sschueller 5y ago
    They have that in the US as well. It's called a copay I believe and it depends on insurance but is also do prevent people from going to seek help if it's minor.
  - neolog 5y ago
    It's called a deductible in usa. https://h4i.nl/2018/11/30/health-insurance-understanding-eigen-risico/ https://h4i.nl/2018/11/30/health-insurance-understanding-eig...
  - nomercy400 5y ago
    Did your intentionally leave out the annual 'basic healthcare' package of around 1500 euro you are required to have? It's not free.
    - contravariant 5y ago
      Though with all other subsidies etc. it's effectively not that different from an additional income tax. To the point where I wonder why they don't just make it part of the income tax.
      - freemint 5y ago
        Certain communities such as the Amish have in the past and will in future go to DC and protest. They see it as an attack on their way of life which it is. It is just that there way of life is build on perpetuating the way of life of the Amish.
        contravariant 5y ago
        Well yes I was talking about the Netherlands where you have a mandatory insurance, guaranteed to be the same amongst all insurers and for which the cost is subsidized for people with low or no income. At that point it's basically an income tax.
  - kwhitefoot 5y ago
    Does eigenrisico apply to each event separately or is there an annual limit? We have a similar idea here in Norway. I pay about 20 euro to visit my GP and I pay for drugs. An MRI costs me about 25 euro. But there is a limit of about 200 euro per year. Anything I pay over that will be refunded in the tax settlement for the year and if I have a chronic need for drugs I will be given a frikort to exempt me from paying for them at the pharmacy.
    - gattilorenz 5y ago
      In NL eigenrisico works like you describe (well, actually, it doesn't: after the eigenrisico you don't pay for stuff anymore, the insurance company covers the cost directly and you are not even billed), but is 350 euro, annually
- DarkWiiPlayer 5y ago
  This isn't a matter of free healthcare; it's a matter of getting rid of bullshit patents and licensing problems that allow companies to pull off their absurd prices in the first place. Insulin should be free for everyone to produce and to sell, then prices would go down on their own. Of course, this doesn't mean the USA shouldn't implement "free" healthcare like we have in europe; just that that's not what the insulin problem comes down to.
  - ekianjo 5y ago
    Insulin has no patents anymore though. But making insulin reliably at the right quality is no easy feat. Thats why you dont have millions of insulin suppliers worldwide.
- ekianjo 5y ago
  because sure, we all know that health care and drugs cost nothing to make. i want to have free food too and free houses too, please add that to the list.
  - AlexAndScripts 5y ago
    Works great here. It is paid for in taxes and the government doesn't take a cut every step, so the tax isn't that high. Also, food stamps etc are already a thing, and insulin is necessary to, like, live.
    - igorzx31 5y ago
      The middle class in europe pays 40-50% income tax rates.
      - sk0g 5y ago
        Don't see a single country [0] where that's true, and that's for average wages, which tends to be higher than the median wage. Mind you, the first infographic includes employer taxes as well, which should be left out of the discussion. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_in_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_in_Europe
        project2501a 5y ago
        you guys are great at refuting those people with facts. Keep at it!
        ric2b 5y ago
        I live in Portugal and 40 to 50% on the middle-class is actually low-balling it by ignoring things like VAT, social security, the employers side of income tax and a bunch of other taxes.
    - ekianjo 5y ago
      free housing where?
tomcooks 5y ago
Would be US only VS an open solution accessible internationally. Plus good luck getting political traction (especially against lobbies) faster than do it yourself
RvdV 5y ago
> and defacto pushing that globally? There is no need for a global push; prices outside the US are substantially lower already. See https://pharmanewsintel.com/news/insulin-prices-8x-higher-in-the-us-compared-to-similar-nations https://pharmanewsintel.com/news/insulin-prices-8x-higher-in...
- after_care 5y ago
  There are other benefits besides price to open source.
  - project2501a 5y ago
    Such as?
    - steveklabnik 5y ago
      Here's one that isn't about the insulin itself, but is about diabetes. Some diabetics use a "continuous glucose monitor" to read their blood glucose levels regularly. The information to that device is fed into an app on your phone (for newer devices) that visualizes the data for you. It doesn't just visualize though, it can also give you alerts. This is an incredibly useful feature! Unfortunately, at least in the ones I have experience with, the metrics they give you to be able to alert on are not good enough. For example, you'd think that "give me an alert when I go below x value" is a useful alert, and it is. However, the app I use only lets me set two alerts: a "low" alert, with the values 100 to 60, and an "urgent low" with the values 55-40. (both are in increments of 5.) That is useful, but what if I want three alerts? What if I want a non-5 value? Sure, you can argue that this isn't necessary, but if it were open source, I would be able to build something to do exactly what I want. Okay, so that's the first issue here. But here's the real issue: the absolute value is useful, but what's more useful is the rate of change. What I truly want to be able to do is set an alert that says "hey if this suddenly drops 10 points, give me a high priority alert" no matter the absolute value. There have been situations where I've seen a sudden downturn from ~180, dropping by 15 each time, and you don't even know until it crosses that 100 threshold. Likewise, I've seen alerts about it going low because it went from 101 to 100. One of those is very serious, and one of those is irrelevant. This stuff would significantly increase quality of life. And it's one tiny part of this whole picture of this one condition.
chrisseaton 5y ago
> lobby Congress to get laws passed to make insulin basically free in the US and defacto pushing that globally You think the US should make insulin free and then use their leadership to encourage other countries to do the same? Do you realise other countries already make insulin free and it'd be the US that would be following their leadership if it made it free?
- dsr_ 5y ago
  Shh! You can't get Congress to vote for "catch up with the rest of the world", you need to phrase it as "America leads the way to freedom!".
ekianjo 5y ago
make it easy to freely trade drugs between countries and prices will plummet.
- LambdaComplex 5y ago
  Personally, I value human life much more than I value corporate profit.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
systematical 5y ago
Big Pharma says no. The American solution is go to Mexico or Canada (can't right now).

pankajdoharey 5y ago

Yes thats the right way, making Healthcare free for all is the only way, US has to learn from Canadians, Brits or dozen other EU countries.

consp 5y ago
"free" is relative. For instance we have a tax on chronically ill people here called "eigenrisico" (literally your own risk) which is not a tax but is meant for people to not seek help unless it is absolutely necessary and then pay for the cost. Some things are excluded but as soon as you need more than basic help or any medicine it comes into play. So it's a tax on being ill in all but name since it resets every year. So "free" comes in many forms, not all single player.
- caddybox 5y ago
  I'd be wary of calling it a tax. As you pointed out it's an amount large enough to warr off spurious medical needs and small enough that if you're really injured or suffering, it can be extremely helpful and is a miniscule part of your medical fees. What's broken is the huisarts system where any efforts to get specialized care when you're in pain must pass through your GP. This often leads to a longer waiting period that can be excruciatingly painful for some.
  - relaxing 5y ago
    In the US it’s called “needing a referral.”
    - kube-system 5y ago
      The literally translated equivalent in the US is a “deductible”.
      - sebmellen 5y ago
        “Eigenrisico” yes, but the Huisarts system is what GP was referring to as being analogous to “needing a referral”.
- sschueller 5y ago
  They have that in the US as well. It's called a copay I believe and it depends on insurance but is also do prevent people from going to seek help if it's minor.
- neolog 5y ago
  It's called a deductible in usa. https://h4i.nl/2018/11/30/health-insurance-understanding-eigen-risico/ https://h4i.nl/2018/11/30/health-insurance-understanding-eig...
- nomercy400 5y ago
  Did your intentionally leave out the annual 'basic healthcare' package of around 1500 euro you are required to have? It's not free.
  - contravariant 5y ago
    Though with all other subsidies etc. it's effectively not that different from an additional income tax. To the point where I wonder why they don't just make it part of the income tax.
    - freemint 5y ago
      Certain communities such as the Amish have in the past and will in future go to DC and protest. They see it as an attack on their way of life which it is. It is just that there way of life is build on perpetuating the way of life of the Amish.
      - contravariant 5y ago
        Well yes I was talking about the Netherlands where you have a mandatory insurance, guaranteed to be the same amongst all insurers and for which the cost is subsidized for people with low or no income. At that point it's basically an income tax.
- kwhitefoot 5y ago
  Does eigenrisico apply to each event separately or is there an annual limit? We have a similar idea here in Norway. I pay about 20 euro to visit my GP and I pay for drugs. An MRI costs me about 25 euro. But there is a limit of about 200 euro per year. Anything I pay over that will be refunded in the tax settlement for the year and if I have a chronic need for drugs I will be given a frikort to exempt me from paying for them at the pharmacy.
  - gattilorenz 5y ago
    In NL eigenrisico works like you describe (well, actually, it doesn't: after the eigenrisico you don't pay for stuff anymore, the insurance company covers the cost directly and you are not even billed), but is 350 euro, annually
DarkWiiPlayer 5y ago
This isn't a matter of free healthcare; it's a matter of getting rid of bullshit patents and licensing problems that allow companies to pull off their absurd prices in the first place. Insulin should be free for everyone to produce and to sell, then prices would go down on their own. Of course, this doesn't mean the USA shouldn't implement "free" healthcare like we have in europe; just that that's not what the insulin problem comes down to.
- ekianjo 5y ago
  Insulin has no patents anymore though. But making insulin reliably at the right quality is no easy feat. Thats why you dont have millions of insulin suppliers worldwide.
ekianjo 5y ago
because sure, we all know that health care and drugs cost nothing to make. i want to have free food too and free houses too, please add that to the list.
- AlexAndScripts 5y ago
  Works great here. It is paid for in taxes and the government doesn't take a cut every step, so the tax isn't that high. Also, food stamps etc are already a thing, and insulin is necessary to, like, live.
  - igorzx31 5y ago
    The middle class in europe pays 40-50% income tax rates.
    - sk0g 5y ago
      Don't see a single country [0] where that's true, and that's for average wages, which tends to be higher than the median wage. Mind you, the first infographic includes employer taxes as well, which should be left out of the discussion. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_in_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_in_Europe
      - project2501a 5y ago
        you guys are great at refuting those people with facts. Keep at it!
      - ric2b 5y ago
        I live in Portugal and 40 to 50% on the middle-class is actually low-balling it by ignoring things like VAT, social security, the employers side of income tax and a bunch of other taxes.
  - ekianjo 5y ago
    free housing where?

tomcooks 5y ago

Would be US only VS an open solution accessible internationally. Plus good luck getting political traction (especially against lobbies) faster than do it yourself

RvdV 5y ago

> and defacto pushing that globally? There is no need for a global push; prices outside the US are substantially lower already. See https://pharmanewsintel.com/news/insulin-prices-8x-higher-in-the-us-compared-to-similar-nations https://pharmanewsintel.com/news/insulin-prices-8x-higher-in...

after_care 5y ago
There are other benefits besides price to open source.
- project2501a 5y ago
  Such as?
  - steveklabnik 5y ago
    Here's one that isn't about the insulin itself, but is about diabetes. Some diabetics use a "continuous glucose monitor" to read their blood glucose levels regularly. The information to that device is fed into an app on your phone (for newer devices) that visualizes the data for you. It doesn't just visualize though, it can also give you alerts. This is an incredibly useful feature! Unfortunately, at least in the ones I have experience with, the metrics they give you to be able to alert on are not good enough. For example, you'd think that "give me an alert when I go below x value" is a useful alert, and it is. However, the app I use only lets me set two alerts: a "low" alert, with the values 100 to 60, and an "urgent low" with the values 55-40. (both are in increments of 5.) That is useful, but what if I want three alerts? What if I want a non-5 value? Sure, you can argue that this isn't necessary, but if it were open source, I would be able to build something to do exactly what I want. Okay, so that's the first issue here. But here's the real issue: the absolute value is useful, but what's more useful is the rate of change. What I truly want to be able to do is set an alert that says "hey if this suddenly drops 10 points, give me a high priority alert" no matter the absolute value. There have been situations where I've seen a sudden downturn from ~180, dropping by 15 each time, and you don't even know until it crosses that 100 threshold. Likewise, I've seen alerts about it going low because it went from 101 to 100. One of those is very serious, and one of those is irrelevant. This stuff would significantly increase quality of life. And it's one tiny part of this whole picture of this one condition.

chrisseaton 5y ago

> lobby Congress to get laws passed to make insulin basically free in the US and defacto pushing that globally You think the US should make insulin free and then use their leadership to encourage other countries to do the same? Do you realise other countries already make insulin free and it'd be the US that would be following their leadership if it made it free?

dsr_ 5y ago
Shh! You can't get Congress to vote for "catch up with the rest of the world", you need to phrase it as "America leads the way to freedom!".

ekianjo 5y ago

make it easy to freely trade drugs between countries and prices will plummet.

LambdaComplex 5y ago
Personally, I value human life much more than I value corporate profit.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

systematical 5y ago

Big Pharma says no. The American solution is go to Mexico or Canada (can't right now).