7 ms·

Minimum wage workers can't afford rent anywhere in America

31 points by DocFeind 5y ago

frugalmail 5y ago
It’s interesting that they demarcate affordability as a single minimum wage earner needing a two bedroom apartment.
- wumpus 5y ago
  That's not new in these sorts of studies, it flows from the realization that people have children.
  - b9a2cab5 5y ago
    You need a $150k salary to _survive_ in a 2bd apartment in SF or NYC. This study is a garbage take. The reason minimum wage workers can't afford rent is not because minimum wage is too low (because in big cities it's way above $15/h and enough to pay for food+other living expenses, minus rent) but because rent is too high. And that's caused by NIMBYism (in this case of the liberal variety but it's everywhere in America), not low minimum wage. If you literally just demolished all the shitty 2-3 floor townhomes in SF and replaced them with 20 floor towers like you see in Asian countries the entire problem is solved. Fun fact: a Berkeley professor named Robert Reich often likes to go on on Twitter about wealth inequality but he himself protested the construction of low income housing next to his home.
    - jjulius 5y ago
      > The reason minimum wage workers can't afford rent is not because minimum wage is too low (because in big cities it's way above $15/h... Using your examples, SF is currently at $16.32/hr and NYC is at $15/hr. I don't know that I would call either of those wages "way above $15/h".
      - b9a2cab5 5y ago
        And what are real wages for restaurant workers and other minimum wage tier jobs? If you take a look at SF, Oakland, NYC, or even mid-west cities like Chicago, they're higher than minimum wage by 20-25%, even at large chain restaurants.
    - endisneigh 5y ago
      No you don’t (at least nyc), lmao. Furthermore saying anything along the lines of - “it’s not that you don’t make enough money, it’s that things are too expensive!” Is clearly pointless.
      - b9a2cab5 5y ago
        If the same number of people are chasing the same number of apartments but making more money, the natural conclusion is that the price of the apartments will go up. If the same number of people are chasing _more_ apartments, the price of the apartments will go down (ignoring induced demand, but I think this is minor for NYC/SF). You can't just legislate a higher wage because in the long run rents will stabilize at a higher level to compensate and all you've done is make landlords richer and fuck over every small business in the city. You need to actually have more supply.
    - tablespoon 5y ago
      Quoth the OP: > There is no state, county or city in the country where a full-time, minimum-wage worker working 40 hours a week can afford a two-bedroom rental, a report from the National Low Income Housing Coalition showed. That includes SF, and it includes some unfashionable place you've probably never heard of where the rent is literally the cheapest in the nation. This probably isn't the right thread to beat the dead horse of SF NIMBYism and push fantasies of a one-size-fits all solution of densely-packed 20 story concrete apartment blocks.
- MauroIksem 5y ago
  There is more in the article that covers the 1bd scenario. Reading more than the headline would help.
  - refurb 5y ago
    Someone needs to earn $21/hr, or $42,000 to afford a 1 bedroom? No. They need that much to afford a 1 bed comfortably.
- acharp 5y ago
  Did you miss the line literally underneath it? > And a $20.40 "housing wage" would be needed for a one-bedroom.
wizardofmysore 5y ago
I think minimum wage is supposed to enable you to move up and not a wage where you can lead a comfortable life. It's expected that a single person on minimum wage can't get a two bedroom house.
- MauroIksem 5y ago
  That was not the original intention of minimum wage. Also consider how long it would take a person to "move up" from minimum wage to a liveable one.
  - wizardofmysore 5y ago
    Got it. I don't know if all jobs can give such a wage. Perhaps we need to define what it would mean to live a minimal comfortable life. I think it's fair to ensure people get good opportunities.
    - Jcowell 5y ago
      If a job cannot afford to give its employees a livable wage then it does not deserve to exists. It’s similar to a Restaurant that cannot adhere to safety standards does not deserve to operate.
- completelylegit 5y ago
  Attitudes like this make life especially difficult for single mothers in low income brackets.
  - wizardofmysore 5y ago
    I do understand that it's hard for single mothers to live on minimum wage. We do need to consider the implications of giving minimum wage to all however. Not that I'm opposed to it but just not sure if it will help majority in the long run.
    - 5y ago
cable2600 5y ago
Too many companies exploit workers at minimum wage and require a degree to qualify for the job in IT or something. It should pay more than minimum wage if you want the employee to have a reliable car and a good place to rest.
immutology 5y ago
It seems the author is comparing a minimum (wage) to an average (rent). Is this the right comparison to determine affordability? I support raising minimum wage but potentially problematic comparisons may not be helpful. Maybe someone who knows more about this kind of data can add context?
- ashtonkem 5y ago
  Is rent really a bell curve? In my experience it’s a very asymmetric shape, with the median (not average) being extremely close to the bottom of what’s available. In my experience the median rent is basically the same as the minimum rent. But yes, average is the wrong metric here.
- asciident 5y ago
  I think to be more precise, the headline should read: "Minimum wage workers can not afford renting a two-bedroom home at fair market rent using 30% of their income" That feels drastically different than the current headline.
diordiderot 5y ago
It's funny that detractors of the minimum wage never make an argument in favor of the alternative. Perhaps that makes them realize the cruelty in it. > I don't think people working 40s per week deserve to live alone > I think people who do unskilled work don't deserve to live comfortably
- imgabe 5y ago
  Probably because those are strawman arguments that nobody makes. How about > I don't think teenagers, people with employed spouses, people with investments or social security or other sources of income should ever be able to take a job for less than what a person could completely support themselves on. Minimum wage jobs are a small portion of all available jobs. There are many jobs, even so-called "unskilled" ones that pay more than minimum wage. As a free adult, it is your responsibility to figure out how to make enough money to live in a way in which you're comfortable.
  - batiudrami 5y ago
    Why would anyone work those jobs then if objectively better ones are available to them and they are capable of performing them?
    - imgabe 5y ago
      For many people they are part-time jobs and the minimum wage job is not a primary source of income. For the rest, maybe instead of asking "How can we distort the market to force employers to pay more for labor than the value it produces?" we should be asking "How can we make more higher value jobs available to more people?".
  - ashtonkem 5y ago
    It’s funny how it’s always the people’s responsibility to get a better job, not the company’s responsibility to find a way to be profitable with reasonable wages.
    - 5y ago
shrubble 5y ago
My parents were married in the early 1950s. The minimum wage was 75 cents per hour. Their small house was $10 per month for rent. I think that there is no way to find such a ratio today in the U.S..
- timbit42 5y ago
  So if rent is $1,000 per month today, the equivalent minimum wage would be $75 per hour.
DoreenMichele 5y ago
Dupe: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27852220 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27852220
jinguang 5y ago
疫情让毫无积蓄的老美下层阶级完全失去了生存的权利。政府好像并不关心他们的死活。或许资本主义的政府走向时代终点的起点。
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
temp8964 5y ago
Meaningless discussion about who deserve what. For an economy to raise wage for low skill workers, the best thing to do is creating more jobs for those workers. Manufacturing Jobs!
- TheGigaChad 5y ago
  Idiot.

31 points by DocFeind 5y ago

frugalmail 5y ago

It’s interesting that they demarcate affordability as a single minimum wage earner needing a two bedroom apartment.

wumpus 5y ago
That's not new in these sorts of studies, it flows from the realization that people have children.
- b9a2cab5 5y ago
  You need a $150k salary to _survive_ in a 2bd apartment in SF or NYC. This study is a garbage take. The reason minimum wage workers can't afford rent is not because minimum wage is too low (because in big cities it's way above $15/h and enough to pay for food+other living expenses, minus rent) but because rent is too high. And that's caused by NIMBYism (in this case of the liberal variety but it's everywhere in America), not low minimum wage. If you literally just demolished all the shitty 2-3 floor townhomes in SF and replaced them with 20 floor towers like you see in Asian countries the entire problem is solved. Fun fact: a Berkeley professor named Robert Reich often likes to go on on Twitter about wealth inequality but he himself protested the construction of low income housing next to his home.
  - jjulius 5y ago
    > The reason minimum wage workers can't afford rent is not because minimum wage is too low (because in big cities it's way above $15/h... Using your examples, SF is currently at $16.32/hr and NYC is at $15/hr. I don't know that I would call either of those wages "way above $15/h".
    - b9a2cab5 5y ago
      And what are real wages for restaurant workers and other minimum wage tier jobs? If you take a look at SF, Oakland, NYC, or even mid-west cities like Chicago, they're higher than minimum wage by 20-25%, even at large chain restaurants.
  - endisneigh 5y ago
    No you don’t (at least nyc), lmao. Furthermore saying anything along the lines of - “it’s not that you don’t make enough money, it’s that things are too expensive!” Is clearly pointless.
    - b9a2cab5 5y ago
      If the same number of people are chasing the same number of apartments but making more money, the natural conclusion is that the price of the apartments will go up. If the same number of people are chasing _more_ apartments, the price of the apartments will go down (ignoring induced demand, but I think this is minor for NYC/SF). You can't just legislate a higher wage because in the long run rents will stabilize at a higher level to compensate and all you've done is make landlords richer and fuck over every small business in the city. You need to actually have more supply.
  - tablespoon 5y ago
    Quoth the OP: > There is no state, county or city in the country where a full-time, minimum-wage worker working 40 hours a week can afford a two-bedroom rental, a report from the National Low Income Housing Coalition showed. That includes SF, and it includes some unfashionable place you've probably never heard of where the rent is literally the cheapest in the nation. This probably isn't the right thread to beat the dead horse of SF NIMBYism and push fantasies of a one-size-fits all solution of densely-packed 20 story concrete apartment blocks.
MauroIksem 5y ago
There is more in the article that covers the 1bd scenario. Reading more than the headline would help.
- refurb 5y ago
  Someone needs to earn $21/hr, or $42,000 to afford a 1 bedroom? No. They need that much to afford a 1 bed comfortably.
acharp 5y ago
Did you miss the line literally underneath it? > And a $20.40 "housing wage" would be needed for a one-bedroom.

wizardofmysore 5y ago

I think minimum wage is supposed to enable you to move up and not a wage where you can lead a comfortable life. It's expected that a single person on minimum wage can't get a two bedroom house.

MauroIksem 5y ago
That was not the original intention of minimum wage. Also consider how long it would take a person to "move up" from minimum wage to a liveable one.
- wizardofmysore 5y ago
  Got it. I don't know if all jobs can give such a wage. Perhaps we need to define what it would mean to live a minimal comfortable life. I think it's fair to ensure people get good opportunities.
  - Jcowell 5y ago
    If a job cannot afford to give its employees a livable wage then it does not deserve to exists. It’s similar to a Restaurant that cannot adhere to safety standards does not deserve to operate.
completelylegit 5y ago
Attitudes like this make life especially difficult for single mothers in low income brackets.
- wizardofmysore 5y ago
  I do understand that it's hard for single mothers to live on minimum wage. We do need to consider the implications of giving minimum wage to all however. Not that I'm opposed to it but just not sure if it will help majority in the long run.
  - 5y ago

cable2600 5y ago

Too many companies exploit workers at minimum wage and require a degree to qualify for the job in IT or something. It should pay more than minimum wage if you want the employee to have a reliable car and a good place to rest.

immutology 5y ago

It seems the author is comparing a minimum (wage) to an average (rent). Is this the right comparison to determine affordability? I support raising minimum wage but potentially problematic comparisons may not be helpful. Maybe someone who knows more about this kind of data can add context?

ashtonkem 5y ago
Is rent really a bell curve? In my experience it’s a very asymmetric shape, with the median (not average) being extremely close to the bottom of what’s available. In my experience the median rent is basically the same as the minimum rent. But yes, average is the wrong metric here.
asciident 5y ago
I think to be more precise, the headline should read: "Minimum wage workers can not afford renting a two-bedroom home at fair market rent using 30% of their income" That feels drastically different than the current headline.

diordiderot 5y ago

It's funny that detractors of the minimum wage never make an argument in favor of the alternative. Perhaps that makes them realize the cruelty in it. > I don't think people working 40s per week deserve to live alone > I think people who do unskilled work don't deserve to live comfortably

imgabe 5y ago
Probably because those are strawman arguments that nobody makes. How about > I don't think teenagers, people with employed spouses, people with investments or social security or other sources of income should ever be able to take a job for less than what a person could completely support themselves on. Minimum wage jobs are a small portion of all available jobs. There are many jobs, even so-called "unskilled" ones that pay more than minimum wage. As a free adult, it is your responsibility to figure out how to make enough money to live in a way in which you're comfortable.
- batiudrami 5y ago
  Why would anyone work those jobs then if objectively better ones are available to them and they are capable of performing them?
  - imgabe 5y ago
    For many people they are part-time jobs and the minimum wage job is not a primary source of income. For the rest, maybe instead of asking "How can we distort the market to force employers to pay more for labor than the value it produces?" we should be asking "How can we make more higher value jobs available to more people?".
- ashtonkem 5y ago
  It’s funny how it’s always the people’s responsibility to get a better job, not the company’s responsibility to find a way to be profitable with reasonable wages.
  - 5y ago

shrubble 5y ago

My parents were married in the early 1950s. The minimum wage was 75 cents per hour. Their small house was $10 per month for rent. I think that there is no way to find such a ratio today in the U.S..

timbit42 5y ago
So if rent is $1,000 per month today, the equivalent minimum wage would be $75 per hour.

DoreenMichele 5y ago

Dupe: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27852220 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27852220

jinguang 5y ago

疫情让毫无积蓄的老美下层阶级完全失去了生存的权利。政府好像并不关心他们的死活。或许资本主义的政府走向时代终点的起点。

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

temp8964 5y ago

Meaningless discussion about who deserve what. For an economy to raise wage for low skill workers, the best thing to do is creating more jobs for those workers. Manufacturing Jobs!

TheGigaChad 5y ago
Idiot.