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Your post inspires me to look at it from a real-world analogy. If I imagine that online ads are the same as offline ads, I start to think about what offline ad

Your post inspires me to look at it from a real-world analogy. If I imagine that online ads are the same as offline ads, I start to think about what offline ad tracking would look like. I imagine cameras being on the streets to watch me walk down the street, following me to different stores to see what I buy, with whom I meet, and other activities to inform which billboards/street advertisements should exist. I think about ads being not just on billboards and bus stands, but on the sidewalk, on every skyscraper, or even more functionally annoying, having to physically remove an ad to open a door to a building, or going halfway up the stairs to be hit with a physical ad that drops from the sky and stops me from entering unless I swipe my ID card. I could go on and yet I think some points start to emerge. I'm OK with ads, I don't like the pervasive tracking. I'm OK with ads, I don't like them interrupting the functionality. I actually even like ads when I have some control over them, not them controlling me. Give me more options to choose which types of ads I want to see (not only don't want to see), don't track me to try to guess/manipulate which ones I want to see. Lastly, I think in physical real estate, there are laws about who can advertise, where, and when, and I think in digital real estate, there don't seem to be those regulations and advertisements and ad-tracking creep more and more. While advertisements seem to be one of the best ways to grow income (i.e., more people viewing/more accurate audience = higher ad price), I think an ad does have a ceiling price and then once it hits it, companies start to make more ads, more intrusive ones, and more tracking ones. I think more than anything, I want more agency over the process, and right now, my options for agency are often do nothing, avoid the site completely, constantly click on ads to say "I don't want to see ads like this" and end up seeing more ads tangentially like it, install an ad-blocker, or one of many other almost guerrilla-like tactics to gain some semblance of agency.

tempestn 5y ago
Absolutely agree with this. Both from a consumer perspective and as a website owner I'd prefer to have ads that are simply intended to appeal to the expected audience for that site/content, as you would expect for offline ads. Unfortunately it doesn't tend to be a good use of time for small to medium operators to curate their own ads directly, so in order to get there we need major ad networks to support this, and, critically, advertisers on those platforms to see value in contextual ads vs precise targeting and tracking. I do think that value is there though. Some of our best marketing for AutoTempest has been through youtube sponsorships where we find creators and videos relating to cars and car buying, and work with with the creator to include a pitch for our service in exchange for (usually) a flat fee. It's dead simple for both sides, and as long as what you're advertising is legitimately useful and you're transparent about the relationship, the response from viewers tends to be very positive. I suppose it could be trickier if your product had a very niche audience, but I would think these days there are corners of the web targeting every niche, so you just need to find where your potential customers hang out, and go there, rather than trying to target them wherever they might be.
kwanbix 5y ago
As far as I see it, tracking is there to make sure you get relevant adds. I remember the internet in the HoTMaiL era, all of the adds where mainly about casinos, porn and such, and very rarely interested to me. I personally think that if tracking is done with good intentions, it shouldn't be an issue. At least from my point of view. I rather see totally relevant ads than have again "casino/poker/porn" ads.
- Smoosh 5y ago
  I suspect that in the early days of internet advertising casino/poker/porn was much more common because they were the ones willing to take a risk on advertising in the new media. Over time other more mainstream industries joined in. I don't agree about the good intentions. The tracking is a means to an end. People are tracked to measure engagement and to target ads, both of which have the purpose of increasing the value of the advertising to the benefit of the ad networks. They don't care if you get relevant ads. They care that they can charge more for your eyeballs because they can classify you as "male, 19-29, in USA, interested in technology, art, exercise" and sell you as part of a package to companies wanting to target that market.
  - spfzero 5y ago
    Yes, no one at the advertising agency is going "let's make sure each person gets relevant ads." They are saying, "let's make sure we can charge more by assuring the buyer that their ad went to the demographic they asked us to show it to." They need to track so that they can "prove" they did what they sold.
  - kwanbix 5y ago
    Of course is about money. The world is based on money. Advertising has existed for years, but it is only now being able to target with more precision. I know this might be an unpopular opinion here in HN, but I really don't see the problem with target advertising.
    - jimkleiber 5y ago
      For me, I don't seem to care much if it's a company trying to sell me a refrigerator, but when a company/org is trying to sell me an idea that a group of people is evil and out to get me and all my problems will be fixed if I vote for X or distance myself from my "evil" friends and family, etc., then I start to worry more. The challenge with having access to that much information is that it can be very powerful and a very lopsided/asymmetric power. I remember when Facebook had Open Graph Search-when any user on the platform could perform complex searches of their friends, friends of friends, and more. It was so powerful at times it freaked me out how powerful it was. I could search for friends of friends who are women who live in San Francisco who speak Spanish who are single and who like Dave Matthews and it would give me a list. Facebook shut it down a few years ago, but I imagine something similar still exists on the advertising side of things (side note, there was someone a few years ago that used the advertiser tools to send ads specifically to his one friend as a prank). So for me, why should some groups have access to this information and others not? Who gets to control who has so much info? Again, the info itself is not necessarily the problem I see, it's the asymmetry and how those people use the asymmetric info they have on me, which can be to powerfully help me or hurt me or maybe even ignore me.
joreilly 5y ago
Performing the same though-exercise, I find myself with a different conclusion; I despise physical advertising. I hate driving down the high-way and seeing a massive billboard for who-even-cares interrupting the fields and forests. I don't want to have products pushed at me while walking around downtown. São Paulo removed all billboards/branding/advertising with their Clean City Law [0] in 2007 and the difference before and after is massive. It immediately looked so much more clean and beautiful (at least for the parts of the city they photographed, probably some selection bias here). Assuming that billboards and advertising are somehow putting money into the government's pockets, I would gladly raise my taxes to eradicate public advertising permanently. Bringing the analogy back to digital advertising, I'd be happy to pay some sort of monthly fee to "The Internet" to receive access to it and never see an ad or be tracked again, perhaps similar to what Coil [1] is attempting, but somehow at full-internet scale. Naturally, how this could be implemented is far beyond me, as are the economics behind advertising, so I suppose I'm doing little more than wistful thinking. If I had to compromise, I would agree that more agency and less intrusive ads and tracking are a start. [0]: https://99percentinvisible.org/article/clean-city-law-secrets-sao-paulo-uncovered-outdoor-advertising-ban/ https://99percentinvisible.org/article/clean-city-law-secret... [1]: https://coil.com/ https://coil.com/
- distances 5y ago
  I agree totally. There's not that much physical world advertising in my part of Europe (e.g. almost no road side banners at all), but I still despise how we've sold bus stops and metro walls to the highest bidder. Public space should be advertisement-free as you can't opt out of it. Private spaces like inside shopping malls is fine for me.
  - jimkleiber 5y ago
    I like that distinction between public and private spaces. And I think those rules exist in many places (at least in the US) but maybe not as strict as you may be desiring. I'm pretty sure my town has restrictions on how tall/big billboards can be, and I know they used to have restrictions about how tall the McDonald's or other restaurant signs could be. I like the idea that inside a private building is opt-in/consent, whereas outside of it is not.
dillondoyle 5y ago
Some of that 'offline' pervasive tracking you describe does exist! Not on the scale of the internet and you give some good examples that are egregious. a lot of it is just 'adtech' bs, but it's there. and the traditional in-store transaction data marketplace is huge. Companies have been tracking you and your purchases around forever. passive bluetooth IDs track you in store - though didn't iOS mitigate that by changing them frequently? idk maybe not. There are some 'eye tracking' billboard tech but it's kind of dumb imho. The simpler is just trying to estimate impressions. though maybe that's more digital ads than not. but collecting, selling, aggregating consumer data, combining it with purchase data, and using that for direct marketing ha been around for ages.
- pavlus 5y ago
  Mobile carrier providers sell flow rates of people through city spots with detailed demographics, so they could target better. At least I know it happens in my country.
Animats 5y ago
physically remove an ad to open a door to a building "Oh, that's where it is. I couldn't find the product because the ad was in the way." Grocery store standalone displays partially blocking aisles and shelves are a pain during busy periods. You get cart jams.
webinvest 5y ago
You could buy a billboard and stick a painting or picture you like on there

tempestn 5y ago

Absolutely agree with this. Both from a consumer perspective and as a website owner I'd prefer to have ads that are simply intended to appeal to the expected audience for that site/content, as you would expect for offline ads. Unfortunately it doesn't tend to be a good use of time for small to medium operators to curate their own ads directly, so in order to get there we need major ad networks to support this, and, critically, advertisers on those platforms to see value in contextual ads vs precise targeting and tracking. I do think that value is there though. Some of our best marketing for AutoTempest has been through youtube sponsorships where we find creators and videos relating to cars and car buying, and work with with the creator to include a pitch for our service in exchange for (usually) a flat fee. It's dead simple for both sides, and as long as what you're advertising is legitimately useful and you're transparent about the relationship, the response from viewers tends to be very positive. I suppose it could be trickier if your product had a very niche audience, but I would think these days there are corners of the web targeting every niche, so you just need to find where your potential customers hang out, and go there, rather than trying to target them wherever they might be.

kwanbix 5y ago

As far as I see it, tracking is there to make sure you get relevant adds. I remember the internet in the HoTMaiL era, all of the adds where mainly about casinos, porn and such, and very rarely interested to me. I personally think that if tracking is done with good intentions, it shouldn't be an issue. At least from my point of view. I rather see totally relevant ads than have again "casino/poker/porn" ads.

Smoosh 5y ago
I suspect that in the early days of internet advertising casino/poker/porn was much more common because they were the ones willing to take a risk on advertising in the new media. Over time other more mainstream industries joined in. I don't agree about the good intentions. The tracking is a means to an end. People are tracked to measure engagement and to target ads, both of which have the purpose of increasing the value of the advertising to the benefit of the ad networks. They don't care if you get relevant ads. They care that they can charge more for your eyeballs because they can classify you as "male, 19-29, in USA, interested in technology, art, exercise" and sell you as part of a package to companies wanting to target that market.
- spfzero 5y ago
  Yes, no one at the advertising agency is going "let's make sure each person gets relevant ads." They are saying, "let's make sure we can charge more by assuring the buyer that their ad went to the demographic they asked us to show it to." They need to track so that they can "prove" they did what they sold.
- kwanbix 5y ago
  Of course is about money. The world is based on money. Advertising has existed for years, but it is only now being able to target with more precision. I know this might be an unpopular opinion here in HN, but I really don't see the problem with target advertising.
  - jimkleiber 5y ago
    For me, I don't seem to care much if it's a company trying to sell me a refrigerator, but when a company/org is trying to sell me an idea that a group of people is evil and out to get me and all my problems will be fixed if I vote for X or distance myself from my "evil" friends and family, etc., then I start to worry more. The challenge with having access to that much information is that it can be very powerful and a very lopsided/asymmetric power. I remember when Facebook had Open Graph Search-when any user on the platform could perform complex searches of their friends, friends of friends, and more. It was so powerful at times it freaked me out how powerful it was. I could search for friends of friends who are women who live in San Francisco who speak Spanish who are single and who like Dave Matthews and it would give me a list. Facebook shut it down a few years ago, but I imagine something similar still exists on the advertising side of things (side note, there was someone a few years ago that used the advertiser tools to send ads specifically to his one friend as a prank). So for me, why should some groups have access to this information and others not? Who gets to control who has so much info? Again, the info itself is not necessarily the problem I see, it's the asymmetry and how those people use the asymmetric info they have on me, which can be to powerfully help me or hurt me or maybe even ignore me.

joreilly 5y ago

Performing the same though-exercise, I find myself with a different conclusion; I despise physical advertising. I hate driving down the high-way and seeing a massive billboard for who-even-cares interrupting the fields and forests. I don't want to have products pushed at me while walking around downtown. São Paulo removed all billboards/branding/advertising with their Clean City Law [0] in 2007 and the difference before and after is massive. It immediately looked so much more clean and beautiful (at least for the parts of the city they photographed, probably some selection bias here). Assuming that billboards and advertising are somehow putting money into the government's pockets, I would gladly raise my taxes to eradicate public advertising permanently. Bringing the analogy back to digital advertising, I'd be happy to pay some sort of monthly fee to "The Internet" to receive access to it and never see an ad or be tracked again, perhaps similar to what Coil [1] is attempting, but somehow at full-internet scale. Naturally, how this could be implemented is far beyond me, as are the economics behind advertising, so I suppose I'm doing little more than wistful thinking. If I had to compromise, I would agree that more agency and less intrusive ads and tracking are a start. [0]: https://99percentinvisible.org/article/clean-city-law-secrets-sao-paulo-uncovered-outdoor-advertising-ban/ https://99percentinvisible.org/article/clean-city-law-secret... [1]: https://coil.com/ https://coil.com/

distances 5y ago
I agree totally. There's not that much physical world advertising in my part of Europe (e.g. almost no road side banners at all), but I still despise how we've sold bus stops and metro walls to the highest bidder. Public space should be advertisement-free as you can't opt out of it. Private spaces like inside shopping malls is fine for me.
- jimkleiber 5y ago
  I like that distinction between public and private spaces. And I think those rules exist in many places (at least in the US) but maybe not as strict as you may be desiring. I'm pretty sure my town has restrictions on how tall/big billboards can be, and I know they used to have restrictions about how tall the McDonald's or other restaurant signs could be. I like the idea that inside a private building is opt-in/consent, whereas outside of it is not.

dillondoyle 5y ago

Some of that 'offline' pervasive tracking you describe does exist! Not on the scale of the internet and you give some good examples that are egregious. a lot of it is just 'adtech' bs, but it's there. and the traditional in-store transaction data marketplace is huge. Companies have been tracking you and your purchases around forever. passive bluetooth IDs track you in store - though didn't iOS mitigate that by changing them frequently? idk maybe not. There are some 'eye tracking' billboard tech but it's kind of dumb imho. The simpler is just trying to estimate impressions. though maybe that's more digital ads than not. but collecting, selling, aggregating consumer data, combining it with purchase data, and using that for direct marketing ha been around for ages.

pavlus 5y ago
Mobile carrier providers sell flow rates of people through city spots with detailed demographics, so they could target better. At least I know it happens in my country.

Animats 5y ago

physically remove an ad to open a door to a building "Oh, that's where it is. I couldn't find the product because the ad was in the way." Grocery store standalone displays partially blocking aisles and shelves are a pain during busy periods. You get cart jams.

webinvest 5y ago

You could buy a billboard and stick a painting or picture you like on there