5 ms·

California approves $35M plan for nation's first state-funded UBI

39 points by elsewhen 5y ago

ixacto 5y ago
This is welfare, not UBI as it is only going to pregnant women and those transitioning out of foster-care. IMO this will taint the ubi experiment overall. Universal means Bill gates and Bezos also receive their $1000/mo…
- jonny_eh 5y ago
  Indeed, it's supposed to be social security for all, not just those aged 67+.
- rossmiller 5y ago
  Well, to be fair, in a pilot you don't generally see a full implementation of whatever is being piloted. If it works on the most vulnerable population, maybe the program will grow.
  - ixacto 5y ago
    Would it not have been easier to just choose people at random from California’s population? Then it would have been actually universal.
    - zsmi 5y ago
      As long as you're prepared for the political backlash when someone is unhappy with the selection. For example, if you're randomly selecting 100 people the odds of getting someone in the 1% are ~2/3. Making UBI payments to someone in the 1% would likely kill this experiment.
      - ixacto 5y ago
        There would be political backlash. But there’s political backlash right now with this program because it’s not universal. If a ubi program is universal that means the wealthy can’t complain that the poor are the only one being it.
- abeppu 5y ago
  I do think the original title (which says "guaranteed income" not "UBI") should have been kept. > IMO this will taint the ubi experiment overall. Nothing in the article makes it sound like this was meant to be a "UBI experiment", and I think the goal of actually helping people who are leaving the foster-care system is valuable whether or not it demonstrates anything about actual UBI.
maerF0x0 5y ago
If anyone wants to use the term "UBI" they should be forced to first watch "Freedom to choose" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3N2sNnGwa4&list=PL4742023192B69941 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3N2sNnGwa4&list=PL474202319... UBI only works when it's 1) Universal (even to rich people) and 2) When it's funded by dismantling some/all of the existing welfare state.
- JorgeGT 5y ago
  And lifelong. No one changes the direction of his life for a 5 year UBI test.
  - maerF0x0 5y ago
    Yeah, or at least "Longish term and guaranteed" . ie, Starting today you will get this payment, or more, for at the next 5 years. We cannot guarantee beyond that date, but we'll keep you informed of changes that may come after 2026.
  - AnimalMuppet 5y ago
    Some won't. But "no one"? I strongly disagree. I can stop worrying about this month, and start worrying about the month five years from now. And in that five years, I can do a lot to position myself so that month will be OK, and the months after it will also be OK.
  - nickff 5y ago
    Five years should be long enough to see people make changes, for good or for bad, though we won't see all the costs/benefits in the intervening time. Five years gives them enough time to make substantial time/education/skill investments in themselves by going to college/trade school, having a child, or learning a new skill. Five years also gives people enough time to develop negative habits/lifestyles such as drug or video game addictions. What change do you think would take more than five years to see?
- petermcneeley 5y ago
  If anyone wants to send links out of "Freedom to choose" they should be first forced to read https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/02/22/repost-the-non-libertarian-faq/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/02/22/repost-the-non-liberta...
kingnothing 5y ago
So each one of California's 39M residents gets $0.89 as part of their Universal Basic Income plan?
jacob2484 5y ago
You'll Own Nothing And Be Happy About It
rajangdavis 5y ago
I have a hard time wrapping my head on how this program is feasible long term when the single payer health care system was passed in California and later shelved.
neolog 5y ago
dang, the title is wrong.
mdoms 5y ago
This is called "welfare".
Revekius 5y ago
I have always been fascinated about this. It isn't UBI by any means, but I am always curious about these "pilot" programs. California did a previous trial in Stockton, CA with $500 checks. You can find more information here: https://www.stocktondemonstration.org/ https://www.stocktondemonstration.org/ You can also find the first year of data on their website too. Ray Dalio did a write up of UBI as well. https://www.economicprinciples.org/downloads/Primer-on-Universal-Basic-Income.pdf https://www.economicprinciples.org/downloads/Primer-on-Unive... Andrew Yang wrote up a good book over the topic with "The War on Normal People" that covers UBI more in depth. His interview with Ben Shapiro (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DHuRTvzMFw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DHuRTvzMFw) and Joe Rogan covers it well also. I like his ideology and it seems well thought out. We, I, have been so ingrained of thinking that capitalism is the best thing since swiss cheese, and it seems like socialism has some good aspects that we can adopt from as well.
temp8964 5y ago
They will realize the next step is price control (bc grocery becomes way too expensive), then land reform (bc rent becomes way too expensive, so the gov takes over lands), then, ... Let's fix and create problems along the way.
dragonwriter 5y ago
> monthly cash payments to qualifying pregnant people and young adults who recently left foster care with no restrictions on how they spend it. Temporary cash payments to people who are currently one of pregnant or recently out of foster care aren’t, even approximately, a UBI. EDIT: If there are no means tests (and there is no indiciation in the article that that is a restriction on the county programs this will fund, its not a direct state program), its approximately a situation-tested social benefit program, otherwise its just a situationally-limited means-tested welfare program.

39 points by elsewhen 5y ago

This is welfare, not UBI as it is only going to pregnant women and those transitioning out of foster-care. IMO this will taint the ubi experiment overall. Universal means Bill gates and Bezos also receive their $1000/mo…

jonny_eh 5y ago
Indeed, it's supposed to be social security for all, not just those aged 67+.
rossmiller 5y ago
Well, to be fair, in a pilot you don't generally see a full implementation of whatever is being piloted. If it works on the most vulnerable population, maybe the program will grow.
- ixacto 5y ago
  Would it not have been easier to just choose people at random from California’s population? Then it would have been actually universal.
  - zsmi 5y ago
    As long as you're prepared for the political backlash when someone is unhappy with the selection. For example, if you're randomly selecting 100 people the odds of getting someone in the 1% are ~2/3. Making UBI payments to someone in the 1% would likely kill this experiment.
    - ixacto 5y ago
      There would be political backlash. But there’s political backlash right now with this program because it’s not universal. If a ubi program is universal that means the wealthy can’t complain that the poor are the only one being it.
abeppu 5y ago
I do think the original title (which says "guaranteed income" not "UBI") should have been kept. > IMO this will taint the ubi experiment overall. Nothing in the article makes it sound like this was meant to be a "UBI experiment", and I think the goal of actually helping people who are leaving the foster-care system is valuable whether or not it demonstrates anything about actual UBI.

maerF0x0 5y ago

If anyone wants to use the term "UBI" they should be forced to first watch "Freedom to choose" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3N2sNnGwa4&list=PL4742023192B69941 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3N2sNnGwa4&list=PL474202319... UBI only works when it's 1) Universal (even to rich people) and 2) When it's funded by dismantling some/all of the existing welfare state.

JorgeGT 5y ago
And lifelong. No one changes the direction of his life for a 5 year UBI test.
- maerF0x0 5y ago
  Yeah, or at least "Longish term and guaranteed" . ie, Starting today you will get this payment, or more, for at the next 5 years. We cannot guarantee beyond that date, but we'll keep you informed of changes that may come after 2026.
- AnimalMuppet 5y ago
  Some won't. But "no one"? I strongly disagree. I can stop worrying about this month, and start worrying about the month five years from now. And in that five years, I can do a lot to position myself so that month will be OK, and the months after it will also be OK.
- nickff 5y ago
  Five years should be long enough to see people make changes, for good or for bad, though we won't see all the costs/benefits in the intervening time. Five years gives them enough time to make substantial time/education/skill investments in themselves by going to college/trade school, having a child, or learning a new skill. Five years also gives people enough time to develop negative habits/lifestyles such as drug or video game addictions. What change do you think would take more than five years to see?
petermcneeley 5y ago
If anyone wants to send links out of "Freedom to choose" they should be first forced to read https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/02/22/repost-the-non-libertarian-faq/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/02/22/repost-the-non-liberta...

kingnothing 5y ago

So each one of California's 39M residents gets $0.89 as part of their Universal Basic Income plan?

jacob2484 5y ago

You'll Own Nothing And Be Happy About It

rajangdavis 5y ago

I have a hard time wrapping my head on how this program is feasible long term when the single payer health care system was passed in California and later shelved.

neolog 5y ago

dang, the title is wrong.

mdoms 5y ago

This is called "welfare".

Revekius 5y ago

I have always been fascinated about this. It isn't UBI by any means, but I am always curious about these "pilot" programs. California did a previous trial in Stockton, CA with $500 checks. You can find more information here: https://www.stocktondemonstration.org/ https://www.stocktondemonstration.org/ You can also find the first year of data on their website too. Ray Dalio did a write up of UBI as well. https://www.economicprinciples.org/downloads/Primer-on-Universal-Basic-Income.pdf https://www.economicprinciples.org/downloads/Primer-on-Unive... Andrew Yang wrote up a good book over the topic with "The War on Normal People" that covers UBI more in depth. His interview with Ben Shapiro (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DHuRTvzMFw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DHuRTvzMFw) and Joe Rogan covers it well also. I like his ideology and it seems well thought out. We, I, have been so ingrained of thinking that capitalism is the best thing since swiss cheese, and it seems like socialism has some good aspects that we can adopt from as well.

temp8964 5y ago

They will realize the next step is price control (bc grocery becomes way too expensive), then land reform (bc rent becomes way too expensive, so the gov takes over lands), then, ... Let's fix and create problems along the way.

dragonwriter 5y ago

> monthly cash payments to qualifying pregnant people and young adults who recently left foster care with no restrictions on how they spend it. Temporary cash payments to people who are currently one of pregnant or recently out of foster care aren’t, even approximately, a UBI. EDIT: If there are no means tests (and there is no indiciation in the article that that is a restriction on the county programs this will fund, its not a direct state program), its approximately a situation-tested social benefit program, otherwise its just a situationally-limited means-tested welfare program.