7 ms·
With YOLOv4-based aimbots on the rise, it's really a losing battle even for the most anticheat infused games.
by CreepGin 5y ago
With YOLOv4-based aimbots on the rise, it's really a losing battle even for the most anticheat infused games.
- episteme 5y agoNot sure what the connection is between YOLOv4 and difficulty of detection? Isn't YOLOv4 about object detection? No matter how good your object detection is, you need to read the game and influence the input which is the part an anticheat is trying to detect, no?
- sudosysgen 5y agoThere is no way to defeat an aimbot that just reads the screen, detects enemies, and moves a mouse.
- majormajor 5y agoThere are probably plenty of ways to tell "fake controller input from a bot" from "actual human controller input" today. Sounds like a scary arms-race, though. At some point the bots will probably be very hard to distinguish from "skilled human." It will be sad if online play becomes only enjoyable with people you already know. I'm surprised how gleeful some people seem to be about this sort of "soon cheating will be undectable!" tech advancement. Or you just go all-in on the surveillance path and there are models that look at your performance in the game over time, your performance in other games over time, etc. Mediocre player suddenly amazing? Probably a cheater! etc... Not great sounding privacy-wise, but Steam probably has access to the data to do this.
- the8472 5y ago> Sounds like a scary arms-race Or a GAN
- sudosysgen 5y agoAlso, there is enough variance amongst human that eventually the generator network can actually slip under the noise floor and become 100% undetectable.
- greenknight 5y agohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObhK8lUfIlc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObhK8lUfIlc They are using deep learning to detect hackers, since 2018
- mhh__ 5y agoAnd it's not working too well.
- mikenew 5y ago> There are probably plenty of ways to tell "fake controller input from a bot" from "actual human controller input" today. Only in the "do these movement patterns appear human-like or not" sense. These aim bots can use assistive devices to input mouse movements and there's no way to tell whether or not there's a human hand moving the mouse.
- sudosysgen 5y agoThere might be for now. You just have to train a second model that actually moves the cursor towards the target on normal player behaviour, eventually it becomes essentially perfect, and what then? As far as performance improvements, oh it's going to make the cheat programmers even more money as they implement a skill ramp up period and get to charge more. The only way in which I'm "gleeful" is that it might finally put an end to the spyware when we realize that controlling someone else's computer is a losing proposition. Otherwise yeah it does suck.
- nullsmack 5y agoThere's a form of cheating I've heard about a while back called softaim. Basically the cheating software doesn't aim for you, but it can tell if you're aiming at the person and pull the trigger for you. The YOLO stuff combined with softaim is going to be pretty hard to detect. The game can't tell if your video is going into the cheating device. Even if it can tell if there's a secondary input coming in for the trigger... people could just mod their mouse to take external input for the button. Someone pathetic enough to cheat absolutely would do this. I honestly don't know how multiplayer will even work in a year's time or maybe even less!
- cle 5y ago> I honestly don't know how multiplayer will even work in a year's time or maybe even less! It's easy, IMO: remove the incentives for cheating. If this is the only way forward, I might be more likely to actually participate in the industry, because it'll put the focus back on intrinsically-fun games, instead of treating games as merely a vehicle for chasing status/rankings/items/etc.
- weird-eye-issue 5y agoIt's easy, just destroy the entire esports industry?
- cle 5y agoIt's an easy concept. A lot of people might not like it. But I would like it.
- weird-eye-issue 5y agoJust play the games you like then and stop commenting how other types of games that you don't even play need to change
- twojacobtwo 5y agoMultiplayer FPS (PvP) games are my favorite - could you explain how they can remove the incentives therein? Almost the entire incentive behind PvP games is beating the other person in any given battle/arena/skirmish. Even if ranks/bonuses/items were detached from "skill", most of the incentive still remains for PvP. Having encountered a number of cheaters over the years, I know they still get joy out of winning the objective of the game with no obvious side benefit.
- giantrobot 5y ago> It will be sad if online play becomes only enjoyable with people you already know. For me this has always been the case. I've felt the same since the days of Kali. There's enough jagoffs running around in games to spoil playing with the normal people. To the jagoffs, they're playing the metagame of cheats/trolling and the game itself is incidental.
- Shorel 5y agoYep. At least for simracing, it is only enjoyable with the same people race after race. Random drivers are just too stupid/reckless.
- blooalien 5y ago> "It will be sad if online play becomes only enjoyable with people you already know." Already long since passed that point for me quite a couple few years back. Thankfully, it's not that hard to build up a little circle of gamer friends who are fun to play with these days. The messaging options alone currently available are many and featureful, making it dead easy to gather a little group and keep in contact with them to organize a game session any ol' time.
- kibwen 5y agoThat's kind of beside the point. Classic aimbots work by reading the game's memory, which means that you can aim at things that are on the other side of walls, or behind you, or obscured by smoke or darkness, or so far away that they don't even render. "Only" being able to aim at things that are actually visible is a significant step down from what we have today, which is the tradeoff for being almost impossible to detect.
- sudosysgen 5y agoActually, no, that's incorrect. You're thinking of wallhacks or wallhacks+aimbot Aimbots only aim at things you can see, it's one of their main features. That way you won't snap into someone's head through a wall which would make everyone know you're hacking and get you banned.
- kibwen 5y agoI'm no expert here but surely aimhacking originally implied wallhacking? The alternative requires doing actual image analysis in realtime, which AFAIK has only become feasible in the last decade and is way more processor-intensive than just reading coordinates in memory and doing some trig to adjust your aim height. Maybe this is selection bias talking, but I see plenty of videos of cheaters who are obviously just snapping to heads through walls.
- f1refly 5y agoSince you can check in memory where the enemies head is, you can obviously also check if theres a wall inbetween. Cheats for video games have had humanizing/cloaking forever.
- sudosysgen 5y agoYou don't actually need image analysis. There are tricks you can use to decide if an enemy is visible or not without it - obviously the game itself does it already to decide if it should draw the enemies to begin with :) Also yes these were invented a long time ago because people got caught snapping through the wall when CS servers started recording demos.
- brigade 5y agoOnly if it’s running on a separate computer and you’re passing your own mouse movements through that computer. I think it’s still typical for the ML aimbots to run on the same computer?
- sudosysgen 5y agoThere was a recent demo of one that didn't. With modern hardware you can run Yolo on an RPi 4 with an 8$ capture card and a Teensy as USB HID for like 50$, you could definitely charge 200$ for it as a cheating appliance. BRB I'm gonna ask for VC funding (just joking)
- blooalien 5y ago> "BRB I'm gonna ask for VC funding (just joking)" I dunno … Mebbe you should run do that right now, before someone else does … Get that price down by around half and most every gamer everywhere can afford your shiny new "modern game genie"; Once everyone can cheat, the original cheaters have nowhere left to hide. They're on even footing with everyone else. Cheater problem solved! ;)
- CamperBob2 5y agoHow about: every time you snipe someone from an implausible distance, you have to identify some crosswalks and traffic lights before the score is counted.
- spyder 5y agoCaptcha in games, oh no :O
- bobsmooth 5y agoI had never considered an ML-based aimbot until now. That's both amusing and infuriating.