4 ms·

Not sure hardcore drugs should ever be OTC; cocaine, heroine, fentanyl and the like. Possession and use should be legal. It should be a healthcare issue. You g

by wil421 5y ago

Not sure hardcore drugs should ever be OTC; cocaine, heroine, fentanyl and the like. Possession and use should be legal. It should be a healthcare issue. You go to some state run place, they give you the option of something to get you off drugs or the real thing. They provide a safe place and clean needles. You have to take some mandatory drug education on a weekly or monthly basis. They should offer all the support and information to help the ones that want to clean up. It should be state run. Private business should not profit off hardcore drugs ever. There will never be an incentive to get them clean.

tluyben2 5y ago
I am not sure, but we tried most things and, at least in what I have seen in NL and after that in Spain, where you can get xtc, heroine and coke everywhere (not legal, but ish...), it does not breed more or worse addicts it seems. While where it is forbidden (US, AU and Asian countries), I trip over the addicts in the streets. In my view we tried all paths except full legalization for both consumption and trade. So full legalization with a lot of counseling (like in Portugal, my current residence) seems a good avenue to try out. In NL we already had (have? It was that way when I was young) The needles and the police checking dope quality at parties, why not go the extra mile? I am afraid this is not the good of the people but the money made from drugs somehow or is that too cynical?
- wil421 5y ago
  >So full legalization with a lot of counseling (like in Portugal, my current residence) seems a good avenue to try out. Yes 100% this is in my view the best approach. >In NL we already had (have? It was that way when I was young) The needles and the police checking dope quality at parties, why not go the extra mile? I am afraid this is not the good of the people but the money made from drugs somehow or is that too cynical? Yes take the money out of the cartels. All profits from state run facilities go toward drug rehabilitation and/or mental healthcare in general. Sourcing of the drugs is the part I am unsure about. Seems like they have to give production to a pharmaceutical company(s) (creating a new cartel). Buying from cartels is not an option as you are just pushing the misery out of your back yard and into Columbia, North Africa, or Afghanistan.
- axxto 5y ago
  > in Spain, where you can get xtc, heroine and coke everywhere (not legal, but ish...) I am from Spain. What are you talking about? Everything you just listed is not only illegal, but very illegal, considered hard drugs by the vast majority of the population, and will get you jail time if you're trafficking or even just possessing low quantities of it if you have previous legal convictions (not even drug related ones, any previous convictions!). And you can get them "everywhere"? lol I am often amazed with the matter-of-fact tone that is frequently used on this site to speak about certain topics while being 100% wrong about them. The scary thing is, if I wasn't from Spain, I might've read your post and believed it. Makes me wonder.
  - tluyben2 5y ago
    It is not legal for the dealer but for the user it is semi legal. At least here in the south you only get arrested if you deal. With whatever drug. I never mentioned you could deal it or that it was legal. But you can get harddrugs in any bar here and the guardia knows it. If you start dealing larger amount you have an issue but that is not what I said... Andalusia: it is really common and the guardia only arrests when there are dealers. Spain is big so I apologize for being too broad. Where are you from because I did not see a difference in Madrid or Barcelona : it is illegal to have or deal but use is tolerated? You do not have this impression? I am definitely not talking about dealing. While I think every country should as it will kill the money incentive.
    - axxto 5y ago
      Using drugs in public is not tolerated at all, and it doesn't matter whether you're in Madrid or Barcelona or anywhere else in the country. I am frankly tired of explaining this, and I don't know where this notion comes from that drugs are socially tolerated in Spain; I'm guessing from some kind of ignorant association with our neighbors of Portugal, where, by the way, drugs are decriminalized, not semi-legal. Decriminalized means you won't get put in jail for personal-use possession, full stop. And personal-use means very low quantities, comically low in most cases. You will go to jail for dealing, and for possessing any quantities above a threshold of purity (you read that right: they do test the purity of hard drugs even for street-possession charges, and will slap you with a harder charge when the results come back). Nevermind that 90% of regular citizens find drugs very disturbing and will call the cops and treat you as a degenerate junkie the moment they even think that you might be on drugs, especially if you're a foreigner and you're outside a tourist-trap nightlife district. Spain, or our neighbors in Portugal, it doesn't matter: you do something supposedly "light" and "tolerated" like smoking weed on the street, and the police will impose a hefty fine between €400 and €1200 (a person's whole salary in many cases), depending on the circumstances. It's the law. It goes without saying that they will confiscate everything. On top of that, if you're a foreigner/tourist and they think you're flaunting your drug usage or simply assume that you just don't give a damn about learning the law of the place you're visiting, they will put your ignorant ass in jail for the night on any charge they like, just for the annoyance. Like that. And then you can talk that 'but it's tolerated!' nonsense on your way to the back of a police van. And then, if still feel like getting smart with them, they'll bring you back to your senses. With a slap across the face, follow by an obstruction of justice charge. And you'll still go in the damn police van. Take it from me, who's grown up here and have been living here for 30 years, or take your risk with taking idiotic internet tourist assumptions for granted. I strongly advise you to do the former, but as we say here: you're free to do as you please, and so is the police.
- djbebs 5y ago
  Drugs are in no way legal in portugal
  - tluyben2 5y ago
    Again, not legal officially and definitely not the trade, but you don't have to go to some dodgy area to get them with the risk of getting beaten up: they are really easy to get and everyone who wants them knows where. The police are supposed to offer counseling addresses when they catch you; that is the story and I like that. However, from what I have seen, like for instance during the PT-FR Euro match in Faro, there were plenty people snorting coke/speed and smoking spliffs while drinking on the streets and plenty of cops that walked by and ignored. So it seems similar to Spain or NL where they 'close their eyes' for personal use and try to take on trafficking, which, in my opinion, has been proven enough to not work. It is safer than also outlaw personal use, but it is not good enough.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
bondarchuk 5y ago
You say cocaine should not be OTC, but possession and use should be legal. It sounds like you accept some level of cocaine use as inevitable. Then why would you make it so that cocaine users are forced to finance criminal organizations?
- wil421 5y ago
  I would like for you to reread my comment. The second paragraph. Not OTC per-say. Instead of using a stick governments need to use a carrot.
  - bondarchuk 5y ago
    I got that, but I think either the state-provided coke is so easy to get that you might as well just call it "OTC", or else it is so difficult to get that you will have an illegal market anyway. Unless I'm misunderstanding something. edit: Specifically, I'm not sure if combining the sale of drugs and the drug cessation treatment is the way to go. We don't do that with alcohol for example. Don't you think that most of what you want to achieve can be done by separating the two, where indeed drug cessation treatment is provided as part of the normal medical care system (but sale isn't)? Except (sorry if I put words in your mouth, consider it a general observation) you will have to let go of the idea that you must at all costs make those people who are wilfully and with informed consent using drugs stop using drugs.
    - wil421 5y ago
      Yea it would be OTC if you take some mandatory drug education and learning how to be safe about things. Maybe attend some group meetings about their problems. Some would also need social education to get back into society.
      - amanaplanacanal 5y ago
        If the legal prices were very cheap, this might work. Do I have to attend a class once, or every time I want to get something? If it’s too onerous many might still use the black market and you haven’t solved the problem. The devil is in the details.
emptyfile 5y ago
> Not sure hardcore drugs should ever be OTC; cocaine[...] Possession and use should be legal. Are you an actual cartel member lol.
- coldtea 5y ago
  That's the opinion of many prominent scientists and social work experts, counter-lol.

by wil421 5y ago

tluyben2 5y ago

I am not sure, but we tried most things and, at least in what I have seen in NL and after that in Spain, where you can get xtc, heroine and coke everywhere (not legal, but ish...), it does not breed more or worse addicts it seems. While where it is forbidden (US, AU and Asian countries), I trip over the addicts in the streets. In my view we tried all paths except full legalization for both consumption and trade. So full legalization with a lot of counseling (like in Portugal, my current residence) seems a good avenue to try out. In NL we already had (have? It was that way when I was young) The needles and the police checking dope quality at parties, why not go the extra mile? I am afraid this is not the good of the people but the money made from drugs somehow or is that too cynical?

wil421 5y ago
>So full legalization with a lot of counseling (like in Portugal, my current residence) seems a good avenue to try out. Yes 100% this is in my view the best approach. >In NL we already had (have? It was that way when I was young) The needles and the police checking dope quality at parties, why not go the extra mile? I am afraid this is not the good of the people but the money made from drugs somehow or is that too cynical? Yes take the money out of the cartels. All profits from state run facilities go toward drug rehabilitation and/or mental healthcare in general. Sourcing of the drugs is the part I am unsure about. Seems like they have to give production to a pharmaceutical company(s) (creating a new cartel). Buying from cartels is not an option as you are just pushing the misery out of your back yard and into Columbia, North Africa, or Afghanistan.
axxto 5y ago
> in Spain, where you can get xtc, heroine and coke everywhere (not legal, but ish...) I am from Spain. What are you talking about? Everything you just listed is not only illegal, but very illegal, considered hard drugs by the vast majority of the population, and will get you jail time if you're trafficking or even just possessing low quantities of it if you have previous legal convictions (not even drug related ones, any previous convictions!). And you can get them "everywhere"? lol I am often amazed with the matter-of-fact tone that is frequently used on this site to speak about certain topics while being 100% wrong about them. The scary thing is, if I wasn't from Spain, I might've read your post and believed it. Makes me wonder.
- tluyben2 5y ago
  It is not legal for the dealer but for the user it is semi legal. At least here in the south you only get arrested if you deal. With whatever drug. I never mentioned you could deal it or that it was legal. But you can get harddrugs in any bar here and the guardia knows it. If you start dealing larger amount you have an issue but that is not what I said... Andalusia: it is really common and the guardia only arrests when there are dealers. Spain is big so I apologize for being too broad. Where are you from because I did not see a difference in Madrid or Barcelona : it is illegal to have or deal but use is tolerated? You do not have this impression? I am definitely not talking about dealing. While I think every country should as it will kill the money incentive.
  - axxto 5y ago
    Using drugs in public is not tolerated at all, and it doesn't matter whether you're in Madrid or Barcelona or anywhere else in the country. I am frankly tired of explaining this, and I don't know where this notion comes from that drugs are socially tolerated in Spain; I'm guessing from some kind of ignorant association with our neighbors of Portugal, where, by the way, drugs are decriminalized, not semi-legal. Decriminalized means you won't get put in jail for personal-use possession, full stop. And personal-use means very low quantities, comically low in most cases. You will go to jail for dealing, and for possessing any quantities above a threshold of purity (you read that right: they do test the purity of hard drugs even for street-possession charges, and will slap you with a harder charge when the results come back). Nevermind that 90% of regular citizens find drugs very disturbing and will call the cops and treat you as a degenerate junkie the moment they even think that you might be on drugs, especially if you're a foreigner and you're outside a tourist-trap nightlife district. Spain, or our neighbors in Portugal, it doesn't matter: you do something supposedly "light" and "tolerated" like smoking weed on the street, and the police will impose a hefty fine between €400 and €1200 (a person's whole salary in many cases), depending on the circumstances. It's the law. It goes without saying that they will confiscate everything. On top of that, if you're a foreigner/tourist and they think you're flaunting your drug usage or simply assume that you just don't give a damn about learning the law of the place you're visiting, they will put your ignorant ass in jail for the night on any charge they like, just for the annoyance. Like that. And then you can talk that 'but it's tolerated!' nonsense on your way to the back of a police van. And then, if still feel like getting smart with them, they'll bring you back to your senses. With a slap across the face, follow by an obstruction of justice charge. And you'll still go in the damn police van. Take it from me, who's grown up here and have been living here for 30 years, or take your risk with taking idiotic internet tourist assumptions for granted. I strongly advise you to do the former, but as we say here: you're free to do as you please, and so is the police.
djbebs 5y ago
Drugs are in no way legal in portugal
- tluyben2 5y ago
  Again, not legal officially and definitely not the trade, but you don't have to go to some dodgy area to get them with the risk of getting beaten up: they are really easy to get and everyone who wants them knows where. The police are supposed to offer counseling addresses when they catch you; that is the story and I like that. However, from what I have seen, like for instance during the PT-FR Euro match in Faro, there were plenty people snorting coke/speed and smoking spliffs while drinking on the streets and plenty of cops that walked by and ignored. So it seems similar to Spain or NL where they 'close their eyes' for personal use and try to take on trafficking, which, in my opinion, has been proven enough to not work. It is safer than also outlaw personal use, but it is not good enough.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

bondarchuk 5y ago

You say cocaine should not be OTC, but possession and use should be legal. It sounds like you accept some level of cocaine use as inevitable. Then why would you make it so that cocaine users are forced to finance criminal organizations?

wil421 5y ago
I would like for you to reread my comment. The second paragraph. Not OTC per-say. Instead of using a stick governments need to use a carrot.
- bondarchuk 5y ago
  I got that, but I think either the state-provided coke is so easy to get that you might as well just call it "OTC", or else it is so difficult to get that you will have an illegal market anyway. Unless I'm misunderstanding something. edit: Specifically, I'm not sure if combining the sale of drugs and the drug cessation treatment is the way to go. We don't do that with alcohol for example. Don't you think that most of what you want to achieve can be done by separating the two, where indeed drug cessation treatment is provided as part of the normal medical care system (but sale isn't)? Except (sorry if I put words in your mouth, consider it a general observation) you will have to let go of the idea that you must at all costs make those people who are wilfully and with informed consent using drugs stop using drugs.
  - wil421 5y ago
    Yea it would be OTC if you take some mandatory drug education and learning how to be safe about things. Maybe attend some group meetings about their problems. Some would also need social education to get back into society.
    - amanaplanacanal 5y ago
      If the legal prices were very cheap, this might work. Do I have to attend a class once, or every time I want to get something? If it’s too onerous many might still use the black market and you haven’t solved the problem. The devil is in the details.

emptyfile 5y ago

> Not sure hardcore drugs should ever be OTC; cocaine[...] Possession and use should be legal. Are you an actual cartel member lol.

coldtea 5y ago
That's the opinion of many prominent scientists and social work experts, counter-lol.