4 ms·

This is sad to hear. I usually cite Netherlands as an example of how lax policies on drug control increase safety. I think I have to get better informed.

throwaway894345 5y ago
I personally would like fewer people using drugs whether by stricter or laxer drug control policies, but I'm compelled to point out that this is a sample size of 1.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- RankingMember 5y ago
  Stricter drug control policies have been tried over and over again and we just don't seem to learn our lesson. I think it makes people feel good to be cracking down on something versus accepting peoples' inherent freedom to do what they want with their own bodies, but cracking down forces problems into hiding; They still exist and fester, but they're a lot harder to deal with.
  - throwaway894345 5y ago
    > I think it makes people feel good to be cracking down on something versus accepting peoples' inherent freedom to do what they want with their own bodies The problem of course is that society foots the bill for people's drug choices in the form of welfare, healthcare, policing, rehabilitation, or etc, and beyond that there's the opportunity cost--many drug users could be otherwise productive members of society, both economically and "morally" e.g., they could participate in community service, local politics, etc. And with respect to the subset of drugs that are addictive, it's also not an individual's choice. So the moral framing of "bad people just trying to oppress the harmless free choices of others" is not very accurate. But yes, I think we agree that there must be a way to minimize the problem beyond what we've achieved with stricter drug control policies.
    - RankingMember 5y ago
      Yeah I think we mostly agree. The only point of disagreement, from my perspective, is that I think we already know that crackdowns don't work no matter how stringent. People will drink (Prohibition) and do drugs (War on Drugs) regardless. Yes, there are societal costs and I think it's right to consider them, but I think those costs exist regardless, and we add onto them by taking the same punitive (and expensive) approach we've tried over and over again.
brnt 5y ago
I think that we Dutch are fnding out there is no solution without downsides to this. The price for defacto/partially normalizing a sector that is criminal in the rest of the world translates to creating a world wide safe haven for people you really don't want to attract.
codeptualize 5y ago
I think this is still true for the users of the drugs. Things like free and anonymous drug testing mean you can actually know what you are taking and that it's safe. There is also quite decent drug education; people generally know to stay away from heroin, meth and other highly addictive substances. If you do get addicted there is decent addiction treatment (afaik covered by health insurance). The problem is that the production and selling is pretty much fully illegal creating this massive illegal market causing all sorts of problems. The drug usage is less of a problem than the crime caused by the illegality of drugs. I don't think stricter laws would solve anything as people will take drugs anyway, it will only drive the prices up, basically funding crime. I think legalization is the way to go. If you look at countries like Portugal and the US legalization/decriminalization is a viable option. The Netherlands might still be a good example: on how lax policies increase safety for users and at the same time how too strict policies create tons of problems and crime.
derbOac 5y ago
I'm very deregulatory when it comes to drugs (and many, but not all, other things), and have read similar things in the past about the Netherlands and the drug market in Europe more generally. The problem from what the grandparent post, is why legalize sales but not production? I don't really see the rationale for that (other than under the idea that the "real" problems are with production?). It seems to be the same problems as the war on drugs in the US, but pushed down to another level. My guess is if everything were legalized, it change the dynamics of the situation. In Europe too, you have the problem of what your neighbors are doing or not doing.
- danieldk 5y ago
  The problem from what the grandparent post, is why legalize sales but not production? These are largely historical compromises. It doesn't change, because the conservative right-wing parties (e.g. CDA and VVD) generally want to completely ban soft drugs, whereas liberal left-wing parties (e.g. PvdA and GroenLinks). So, we don't really make progress in any direction.

throwaway894345 5y ago

I personally would like fewer people using drugs whether by stricter or laxer drug control policies, but I'm compelled to point out that this is a sample size of 1.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
RankingMember 5y ago
Stricter drug control policies have been tried over and over again and we just don't seem to learn our lesson. I think it makes people feel good to be cracking down on something versus accepting peoples' inherent freedom to do what they want with their own bodies, but cracking down forces problems into hiding; They still exist and fester, but they're a lot harder to deal with.
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  > I think it makes people feel good to be cracking down on something versus accepting peoples' inherent freedom to do what they want with their own bodies The problem of course is that society foots the bill for people's drug choices in the form of welfare, healthcare, policing, rehabilitation, or etc, and beyond that there's the opportunity cost--many drug users could be otherwise productive members of society, both economically and "morally" e.g., they could participate in community service, local politics, etc. And with respect to the subset of drugs that are addictive, it's also not an individual's choice. So the moral framing of "bad people just trying to oppress the harmless free choices of others" is not very accurate. But yes, I think we agree that there must be a way to minimize the problem beyond what we've achieved with stricter drug control policies.
  - RankingMember 5y ago
    Yeah I think we mostly agree. The only point of disagreement, from my perspective, is that I think we already know that crackdowns don't work no matter how stringent. People will drink (Prohibition) and do drugs (War on Drugs) regardless. Yes, there are societal costs and I think it's right to consider them, but I think those costs exist regardless, and we add onto them by taking the same punitive (and expensive) approach we've tried over and over again.

brnt 5y ago

I think that we Dutch are fnding out there is no solution without downsides to this. The price for defacto/partially normalizing a sector that is criminal in the rest of the world translates to creating a world wide safe haven for people you really don't want to attract.

codeptualize 5y ago

I think this is still true for the users of the drugs. Things like free and anonymous drug testing mean you can actually know what you are taking and that it's safe. There is also quite decent drug education; people generally know to stay away from heroin, meth and other highly addictive substances. If you do get addicted there is decent addiction treatment (afaik covered by health insurance). The problem is that the production and selling is pretty much fully illegal creating this massive illegal market causing all sorts of problems. The drug usage is less of a problem than the crime caused by the illegality of drugs. I don't think stricter laws would solve anything as people will take drugs anyway, it will only drive the prices up, basically funding crime. I think legalization is the way to go. If you look at countries like Portugal and the US legalization/decriminalization is a viable option. The Netherlands might still be a good example: on how lax policies increase safety for users and at the same time how too strict policies create tons of problems and crime.

derbOac 5y ago

I'm very deregulatory when it comes to drugs (and many, but not all, other things), and have read similar things in the past about the Netherlands and the drug market in Europe more generally. The problem from what the grandparent post, is why legalize sales but not production? I don't really see the rationale for that (other than under the idea that the "real" problems are with production?). It seems to be the same problems as the war on drugs in the US, but pushed down to another level. My guess is if everything were legalized, it change the dynamics of the situation. In Europe too, you have the problem of what your neighbors are doing or not doing.

danieldk 5y ago
The problem from what the grandparent post, is why legalize sales but not production? These are largely historical compromises. It doesn't change, because the conservative right-wing parties (e.g. CDA and VVD) generally want to completely ban soft drugs, whereas liberal left-wing parties (e.g. PvdA and GroenLinks). So, we don't really make progress in any direction.