6 ms·

The Netherlands has a MAJOR drug problem, in the sense that a lot of the (synthetic) drugs used in Europe are produced here. This shooting is related to one inf

by adflux 5y ago

The Netherlands has a MAJOR drug problem, in the sense that a lot of the (synthetic) drugs used in Europe are produced here. This shooting is related to one influential criminal, Redoan Taghi, who has also ordered a hit on a lawyer (Derk Wiersum) and reportedly is trying to hire people to escape him from prison. Police are understaffed and seemingly really can't keep up. They make a lot of mistakes in the process, accidentally publishing the identity of key witnesses etc... Anyways, the "legal" drug system is broken to it's core. The way it currently works is that Marijuana can be bought legally at a coffeeshop, but it cannot be produced for sale legally. It is the best possible outcome for drug producing criminals, as they can access the largest possible resale market through the coffeeshops, so its easy to distribute big volume, and there is little competition (only from other criminals). I suspect this broken legal system is bankrolling these criminals and setting them up for the more profitable stuff such as cocaine.

tluyben2 5y ago
I am born and raised in the Netherlands and I have always been for full legalization of everything (as in: I should be able to buy whatever OTC from certified sources). I think the path they chose is not very good. Also it is unclear if full legal would work, but let's try it: war on drugs, in whatever way, seems to work no-where.
- wil421 5y ago
  Not sure hardcore drugs should ever be OTC; cocaine, heroine, fentanyl and the like. Possession and use should be legal. It should be a healthcare issue. You go to some state run place, they give you the option of something to get you off drugs or the real thing. They provide a safe place and clean needles. You have to take some mandatory drug education on a weekly or monthly basis. They should offer all the support and information to help the ones that want to clean up. It should be state run. Private business should not profit off hardcore drugs ever. There will never be an incentive to get them clean.
  - tluyben2 5y ago
    I am not sure, but we tried most things and, at least in what I have seen in NL and after that in Spain, where you can get xtc, heroine and coke everywhere (not legal, but ish...), it does not breed more or worse addicts it seems. While where it is forbidden (US, AU and Asian countries), I trip over the addicts in the streets. In my view we tried all paths except full legalization for both consumption and trade. So full legalization with a lot of counseling (like in Portugal, my current residence) seems a good avenue to try out. In NL we already had (have? It was that way when I was young) The needles and the police checking dope quality at parties, why not go the extra mile? I am afraid this is not the good of the people but the money made from drugs somehow or is that too cynical?
    - wil421 5y ago
      >So full legalization with a lot of counseling (like in Portugal, my current residence) seems a good avenue to try out. Yes 100% this is in my view the best approach. >In NL we already had (have? It was that way when I was young) The needles and the police checking dope quality at parties, why not go the extra mile? I am afraid this is not the good of the people but the money made from drugs somehow or is that too cynical? Yes take the money out of the cartels. All profits from state run facilities go toward drug rehabilitation and/or mental healthcare in general. Sourcing of the drugs is the part I am unsure about. Seems like they have to give production to a pharmaceutical company(s) (creating a new cartel). Buying from cartels is not an option as you are just pushing the misery out of your back yard and into Columbia, North Africa, or Afghanistan.
    - axxto 5y ago
      > in Spain, where you can get xtc, heroine and coke everywhere (not legal, but ish...) I am from Spain. What are you talking about? Everything you just listed is not only illegal, but very illegal, considered hard drugs by the vast majority of the population, and will get you jail time if you're trafficking or even just possessing low quantities of it if you have previous legal convictions (not even drug related ones, any previous convictions!). And you can get them "everywhere"? lol I am often amazed with the matter-of-fact tone that is frequently used on this site to speak about certain topics while being 100% wrong about them. The scary thing is, if I wasn't from Spain, I might've read your post and believed it. Makes me wonder.
einpoklum 5y ago
> Police are understaffed I don't buy that. I mean, it could be that the investigation into this criminal racket is understaffed, but the question of whether there are more or less police staff generally probably not that important here. > They make a lot of mistakes in the process, accidentally publishing the identity of key witnesses etc... Understaffing of an investigation + strategic "mistakes" raises some red flags IMHO. > The way it currently works is that Marijuana can be bought legally at a coffeeshop, but it cannot be produced for sale legally. Why has the Netherlands not decriminalized Cannbis-based products entirely? That is is, which political parties are against it, and what are their arguments? > I suspect this broken legal system is bankrolling A nitpick about your English phrasing: I'm sure you mean that current law is conducive to these criminal-industrial operations, not the legal _system_ and not bankrolling. i.e. no jurist is financing these crimes.
- strangetortoise 5y ago
  > ... but the question of whether there are more or less police staff generally probably not that important here. What are you talking about? A quick google shows extensive reporting on the lack of police staffing and working pressure. This has been pretty well-reported in NL over the last few years. [0] 2018: https://nos.nl/nieuwsuur/artikel/2245189-personeelstekort-bij-de-politie-in-veel-plaatsen-piept-en-kraakt-het https://nos.nl/nieuwsuur/artikel/2245189-personeelstekort-bi... [1] 2019: https://eenvandaag.avrotros.nl/item/politievakbond-er-is-een-schreeuwend-tekort-aan-blauw-op-straat-en-dat-wordt-alleen-maar-erger/ https://eenvandaag.avrotros.nl/item/politievakbond-er-is-een... [2] 2019: https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2019/12/16/politie-heeft-te-weinig-tijd-en-mankracht-voor-aanpak-georganiseerde-misdaad-a3983996 https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2019/12/16/politie-heeft-te-weinig... [3] 2019: https://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/nederland/artikel/4936156/politie-amsterdam-femke-halsema-burgemeester-openbaar-ministerie https://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/nederland/artikel/4936156/po...
- ben_w 5y ago
  I don’t know what things are like in the Netherlands, but a while ago I realised that the (self-reported) drug use in the UK was sufficient that the UK would literally have to bankrupt itself if it tried to fully enforce its laws. While I take this to be a sign that the laws are wrong, I am more anarchic than the average UK voter. I can’t even compare myself to the average Dutch voter (ik spreek nur een bitje Nederlands, and even that is mostly because of how close it is to an average of English and German).
pelasaco 5y ago
> The way it currently works is that Marijuana can be bought legally at a coffeeshop, but it cannot be produced for sale legally An interesting information: "In 2018, the Dutch electricity provider (Netbeheer Nederland) was able to detect energy theft that could be related to 2 600 cannabis cultivation sites. People running these growing operations stole a total of 95 million kilowatt hours in 2018, costing the provider a total of EUR 60 million and the government about EUR 135 million in tax revenues. Based on police estimates of about 30 000 illicit cannabis cultivation sites in the Netherlands, these would consume and possibly steal about 1 billion kilowatt hours of electricity, equivalent to the annual consumption of all households in the city of Rotterdam, which has 650 000 inhabitants (Netbeheer Nederland, 2019)." - EU Drug markets report, EUROPOL.
durnygbur 5y ago
Every time I travel through Germany by car and mention Netherlands as the origin or destination to the German road or Zoll police, they're turning hysterical with their "illegal substances?" questions.
- superice 5y ago
  I responded by saying 'why would I bring any here if I can consume legally at home?'. That is apparently not the right answer...
- andai 5y ago
  Well what are they expecting, a guy so high he says yes?
  - hackeraccount 5y ago
    I remember a job I had back in the 90's that had a "written drug test." It was basically an intelligence test - the questions were literally "Have you smoked crack in last 30 days?"
  - dimitrios1 5y ago
    Life has taught me, so far, if something seems so belligerently useless or ineffective and obviously so, the answer usually isn't that I am the only one aware and everyone else just happens to be blindly oblivious. The answer usually is there's another reason or angle I am not seeing.
    - mikeyouse 5y ago
      Could be similar to those "are you or have you ever been in a terrorist organization" forms you sign when traveling to the US. Create a law that makes it illegal to lie on that question and then it's often easier to arrest/deport people for lying on a form (or to an officer) than to convict them of a bigger offense.
- brain5ide 5y ago
  The only proper responses would be: "Not yet" or "Not anymore".
omgwtfbbq 5y ago
You're blatantly conflating legal weed with an enormous Cocaine kingpin. It's unhelpful and dishonest.
marcodiego 5y ago
This is sad to hear. I usually cite Netherlands as an example of how lax policies on drug control increase safety. I think I have to get better informed.
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  I personally would like fewer people using drugs whether by stricter or laxer drug control policies, but I'm compelled to point out that this is a sample size of 1.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - RankingMember 5y ago
    Stricter drug control policies have been tried over and over again and we just don't seem to learn our lesson. I think it makes people feel good to be cracking down on something versus accepting peoples' inherent freedom to do what they want with their own bodies, but cracking down forces problems into hiding; They still exist and fester, but they're a lot harder to deal with.
    - throwaway894345 5y ago
      > I think it makes people feel good to be cracking down on something versus accepting peoples' inherent freedom to do what they want with their own bodies The problem of course is that society foots the bill for people's drug choices in the form of welfare, healthcare, policing, rehabilitation, or etc, and beyond that there's the opportunity cost--many drug users could be otherwise productive members of society, both economically and "morally" e.g., they could participate in community service, local politics, etc. And with respect to the subset of drugs that are addictive, it's also not an individual's choice. So the moral framing of "bad people just trying to oppress the harmless free choices of others" is not very accurate. But yes, I think we agree that there must be a way to minimize the problem beyond what we've achieved with stricter drug control policies.
JPKab 5y ago
The whole "legal to retail it, illegal to produce/grow it" is the dumbest example of a policy I've seen, and it's shocking to me that such a progressive country has such a backwards policy. Amazingly, it makes the confusing "legal in many states/illegal at Federal level" morass of the USA look good. Here in Colorado, every bit of legally sold cannabis (or it's refined products like edibles/concentrates) can be traced to the plant or collection of plants it was produced with. Compared to other US states, the system is incredibly effective in its goal of maintaining a price floor and preventing oversupply like Oregon and California have. Oversupply is bad because growers become less profitable, and are more likely to sell on the black market as a result. Most importantly, full traceability from the retail store to the producer prevents organized crime from supplying the retail locations. The Netherlands should look at the Colorado model, and take it farther.
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  > Oversupply is bad because growers become less profitable, and are more likely to sell on the black market as a result. Why would the black market be more lucrative? Why does a black market exist when there is a cheap legal market? Is the implication that the black market exports to states where it isn't yet legal and thus prices are higher? > Most importantly, full traceability from the retail store to the producer prevents organized crime from supplying the retail locations. I like this mechanism.
  - jdeibele 5y ago
    The legal market isn't cheap because there are "sin taxes" on cannabis that make it expensive. Often the high taxes are supposed to be a disincentive for consumption or overconsumption. Cigarettes are too expensive for teenagers, etc. See also bootleggers, cigarettes trucked from low-tax states (Eric Garner), etc.
spoonjim 5y ago
Ridouan Taghi kills Peter de Vries, Twitter wonders why right wing nationalist governments are ascendant.

by adflux 5y ago

tluyben2 5y ago

I am born and raised in the Netherlands and I have always been for full legalization of everything (as in: I should be able to buy whatever OTC from certified sources). I think the path they chose is not very good. Also it is unclear if full legal would work, but let's try it: war on drugs, in whatever way, seems to work no-where.

wil421 5y ago
Not sure hardcore drugs should ever be OTC; cocaine, heroine, fentanyl and the like. Possession and use should be legal. It should be a healthcare issue. You go to some state run place, they give you the option of something to get you off drugs or the real thing. They provide a safe place and clean needles. You have to take some mandatory drug education on a weekly or monthly basis. They should offer all the support and information to help the ones that want to clean up. It should be state run. Private business should not profit off hardcore drugs ever. There will never be an incentive to get them clean.
- tluyben2 5y ago
  I am not sure, but we tried most things and, at least in what I have seen in NL and after that in Spain, where you can get xtc, heroine and coke everywhere (not legal, but ish...), it does not breed more or worse addicts it seems. While where it is forbidden (US, AU and Asian countries), I trip over the addicts in the streets. In my view we tried all paths except full legalization for both consumption and trade. So full legalization with a lot of counseling (like in Portugal, my current residence) seems a good avenue to try out. In NL we already had (have? It was that way when I was young) The needles and the police checking dope quality at parties, why not go the extra mile? I am afraid this is not the good of the people but the money made from drugs somehow or is that too cynical?
  - wil421 5y ago
    >So full legalization with a lot of counseling (like in Portugal, my current residence) seems a good avenue to try out. Yes 100% this is in my view the best approach. >In NL we already had (have? It was that way when I was young) The needles and the police checking dope quality at parties, why not go the extra mile? I am afraid this is not the good of the people but the money made from drugs somehow or is that too cynical? Yes take the money out of the cartels. All profits from state run facilities go toward drug rehabilitation and/or mental healthcare in general. Sourcing of the drugs is the part I am unsure about. Seems like they have to give production to a pharmaceutical company(s) (creating a new cartel). Buying from cartels is not an option as you are just pushing the misery out of your back yard and into Columbia, North Africa, or Afghanistan.
  - axxto 5y ago
    > in Spain, where you can get xtc, heroine and coke everywhere (not legal, but ish...) I am from Spain. What are you talking about? Everything you just listed is not only illegal, but very illegal, considered hard drugs by the vast majority of the population, and will get you jail time if you're trafficking or even just possessing low quantities of it if you have previous legal convictions (not even drug related ones, any previous convictions!). And you can get them "everywhere"? lol I am often amazed with the matter-of-fact tone that is frequently used on this site to speak about certain topics while being 100% wrong about them. The scary thing is, if I wasn't from Spain, I might've read your post and believed it. Makes me wonder.

einpoklum 5y ago

> Police are understaffed I don't buy that. I mean, it could be that the investigation into this criminal racket is understaffed, but the question of whether there are more or less police staff generally probably not that important here. > They make a lot of mistakes in the process, accidentally publishing the identity of key witnesses etc... Understaffing of an investigation + strategic "mistakes" raises some red flags IMHO. > The way it currently works is that Marijuana can be bought legally at a coffeeshop, but it cannot be produced for sale legally. Why has the Netherlands not decriminalized Cannbis-based products entirely? That is is, which political parties are against it, and what are their arguments? > I suspect this broken legal system is bankrolling A nitpick about your English phrasing: I'm sure you mean that current law is conducive to these criminal-industrial operations, not the legal _system_ and not bankrolling. i.e. no jurist is financing these crimes.

strangetortoise 5y ago
> ... but the question of whether there are more or less police staff generally probably not that important here. What are you talking about? A quick google shows extensive reporting on the lack of police staffing and working pressure. This has been pretty well-reported in NL over the last few years. [0] 2018: https://nos.nl/nieuwsuur/artikel/2245189-personeelstekort-bij-de-politie-in-veel-plaatsen-piept-en-kraakt-het https://nos.nl/nieuwsuur/artikel/2245189-personeelstekort-bi... [1] 2019: https://eenvandaag.avrotros.nl/item/politievakbond-er-is-een-schreeuwend-tekort-aan-blauw-op-straat-en-dat-wordt-alleen-maar-erger/ https://eenvandaag.avrotros.nl/item/politievakbond-er-is-een... [2] 2019: https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2019/12/16/politie-heeft-te-weinig-tijd-en-mankracht-voor-aanpak-georganiseerde-misdaad-a3983996 https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2019/12/16/politie-heeft-te-weinig... [3] 2019: https://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/nederland/artikel/4936156/politie-amsterdam-femke-halsema-burgemeester-openbaar-ministerie https://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/nederland/artikel/4936156/po...
ben_w 5y ago
I don’t know what things are like in the Netherlands, but a while ago I realised that the (self-reported) drug use in the UK was sufficient that the UK would literally have to bankrupt itself if it tried to fully enforce its laws. While I take this to be a sign that the laws are wrong, I am more anarchic than the average UK voter. I can’t even compare myself to the average Dutch voter (ik spreek nur een bitje Nederlands, and even that is mostly because of how close it is to an average of English and German).

pelasaco 5y ago

> The way it currently works is that Marijuana can be bought legally at a coffeeshop, but it cannot be produced for sale legally An interesting information: "In 2018, the Dutch electricity provider (Netbeheer Nederland) was able to detect energy theft that could be related to 2 600 cannabis cultivation sites. People running these growing operations stole a total of 95 million kilowatt hours in 2018, costing the provider a total of EUR 60 million and the government about EUR 135 million in tax revenues. Based on police estimates of about 30 000 illicit cannabis cultivation sites in the Netherlands, these would consume and possibly steal about 1 billion kilowatt hours of electricity, equivalent to the annual consumption of all households in the city of Rotterdam, which has 650 000 inhabitants (Netbeheer Nederland, 2019)." - EU Drug markets report, EUROPOL.

durnygbur 5y ago

Every time I travel through Germany by car and mention Netherlands as the origin or destination to the German road or Zoll police, they're turning hysterical with their "illegal substances?" questions.

superice 5y ago
I responded by saying 'why would I bring any here if I can consume legally at home?'. That is apparently not the right answer...
andai 5y ago
Well what are they expecting, a guy so high he says yes?
- hackeraccount 5y ago
  I remember a job I had back in the 90's that had a "written drug test." It was basically an intelligence test - the questions were literally "Have you smoked crack in last 30 days?"
- dimitrios1 5y ago
  Life has taught me, so far, if something seems so belligerently useless or ineffective and obviously so, the answer usually isn't that I am the only one aware and everyone else just happens to be blindly oblivious. The answer usually is there's another reason or angle I am not seeing.
  - mikeyouse 5y ago
    Could be similar to those "are you or have you ever been in a terrorist organization" forms you sign when traveling to the US. Create a law that makes it illegal to lie on that question and then it's often easier to arrest/deport people for lying on a form (or to an officer) than to convict them of a bigger offense.
brain5ide 5y ago
The only proper responses would be: "Not yet" or "Not anymore".

omgwtfbbq 5y ago

You're blatantly conflating legal weed with an enormous Cocaine kingpin. It's unhelpful and dishonest.

marcodiego 5y ago

This is sad to hear. I usually cite Netherlands as an example of how lax policies on drug control increase safety. I think I have to get better informed.

throwaway894345 5y ago
I personally would like fewer people using drugs whether by stricter or laxer drug control policies, but I'm compelled to point out that this is a sample size of 1.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- RankingMember 5y ago
  Stricter drug control policies have been tried over and over again and we just don't seem to learn our lesson. I think it makes people feel good to be cracking down on something versus accepting peoples' inherent freedom to do what they want with their own bodies, but cracking down forces problems into hiding; They still exist and fester, but they're a lot harder to deal with.
  - throwaway894345 5y ago
    > I think it makes people feel good to be cracking down on something versus accepting peoples' inherent freedom to do what they want with their own bodies The problem of course is that society foots the bill for people's drug choices in the form of welfare, healthcare, policing, rehabilitation, or etc, and beyond that there's the opportunity cost--many drug users could be otherwise productive members of society, both economically and "morally" e.g., they could participate in community service, local politics, etc. And with respect to the subset of drugs that are addictive, it's also not an individual's choice. So the moral framing of "bad people just trying to oppress the harmless free choices of others" is not very accurate. But yes, I think we agree that there must be a way to minimize the problem beyond what we've achieved with stricter drug control policies.

JPKab 5y ago

The whole "legal to retail it, illegal to produce/grow it" is the dumbest example of a policy I've seen, and it's shocking to me that such a progressive country has such a backwards policy. Amazingly, it makes the confusing "legal in many states/illegal at Federal level" morass of the USA look good. Here in Colorado, every bit of legally sold cannabis (or it's refined products like edibles/concentrates) can be traced to the plant or collection of plants it was produced with. Compared to other US states, the system is incredibly effective in its goal of maintaining a price floor and preventing oversupply like Oregon and California have. Oversupply is bad because growers become less profitable, and are more likely to sell on the black market as a result. Most importantly, full traceability from the retail store to the producer prevents organized crime from supplying the retail locations. The Netherlands should look at the Colorado model, and take it farther.

throwaway894345 5y ago
> Oversupply is bad because growers become less profitable, and are more likely to sell on the black market as a result. Why would the black market be more lucrative? Why does a black market exist when there is a cheap legal market? Is the implication that the black market exports to states where it isn't yet legal and thus prices are higher? > Most importantly, full traceability from the retail store to the producer prevents organized crime from supplying the retail locations. I like this mechanism.
- jdeibele 5y ago
  The legal market isn't cheap because there are "sin taxes" on cannabis that make it expensive. Often the high taxes are supposed to be a disincentive for consumption or overconsumption. Cigarettes are too expensive for teenagers, etc. See also bootleggers, cigarettes trucked from low-tax states (Eric Garner), etc.

spoonjim 5y ago

Ridouan Taghi kills Peter de Vries, Twitter wonders why right wing nationalist governments are ascendant.