4 ms·

> Because drive-by shootings that kill innocent, uninvolved people are not a thing? They really aren’t a thing. Certainly not in the Netherlands. Even in the

by zepto 5y ago

> Because drive-by shootings that kill innocent, uninvolved people are not a thing? They really aren’t a thing. Certainly not in the Netherlands. Even in the US, it’s an exceptionally rare cause of death of no significance at all.

zabzonk 5y ago
> They really aren’t a thing. They really are in the UK. > cause of death of no significance at all Of course, someone's needless death is of no significance. You have probably never heard of John Donne, but: "Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankind; And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee."
- smcl 5y ago
  I've been out of the country for a few years but ... are you telling me that drive-by shootings have become a serious problem in the UK? Last I checked shootings of any kind were extremely rare. I would imagine drive-by shootings would therefore be so vanishingly rare that you could only really say they were "a thing" insofar as they have taken place there at some point, not as any sort of significant consideration when discussing drugs policy.
  - zabzonk 5y ago
    They are not rare now - and they have always happened. There is a huge amount of gang-warfare in the UK using guns and knives (just look at London, Birmingham and Manchester) and it spills over to bystanders. And maybe look up "county lines", which is corrupting children, and spreading the drug trade, and violence, to even small towns. I am not against the use of drugs, and have used some at one point or another myself. But it is delusional to think that so long as drug use is criminalised, criminal gangs will not use extreme violence.
    - foldr 5y ago
      Between March 2018 and March 2019, there were 32 gun homicides in the whole of the UK (https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/homicideinenglandandwales/yearendingmarch2019 https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeand...). This is not consistent with the claim that drive-by shootings are a commonplace event. For comparison, there were, for example, 326 gun homicides in NYC alone in 2019 (https://efsgv.org/state/new-york/#:~:text=More%20than%20800%20New%20Yorkers,deaths%20and%20homicides%20were%2041%25 https://efsgv.org/state/new-york/#:~:text=More%20than%20800%...)
      - zabzonk 5y ago
        But of course, 32 lives are insignificant. And you haven't talked about knife murders, or other violence, such as arson. But, what the hell, you have made your point - it doesn't matter about people getting killed, so long as the numbers are what you, in your wisdom, consider "low". Also, this is 2021.
        foldr 5y ago
        I was just addressing the claim that drive by shootings are something that happen with a significant frequency in the UK. They really aren't, as is obvious from the gun homicide stats. The UK has one of the lowest rates of gun homicide in the world, so there is no reason to put 'low' in scare quotes in this context. I'm not sure how representative pandemic stats would be, so it made sense to look at 2019. But I don't think you can seriously claim that drive by shootings have massively increased during the pandemic. Or at least, if you do claim this, it would be good to see a source.
        smcl 5y ago
        It's 32 more than I would like for sure. But I don't think it's fair to talk about it like this is an everyday thing in the UK, particularly drive-by shootings which was the original point of contention. I do agree with you on this part of your original reply, though: > But it is delusional to think that so long as drug use is criminalised, criminal gangs will not use extreme violence. It's definitely the case that criminalization of drug use is one of the root causes of a lot of violent crime in the UK. I imagine we'd have other social issues to contend with if we followed the path of making many drugs legal, but we'd certainly have less crime related to their trafficking and distribution.
drukenemo 5y ago
I live in the Netherlands and in a good neighbourhood. One neighbouring house was blasted with heavy gun fire by a passing-by vehicle in an attempt to murder someone. So it’s not unheard of. Also, in my previous apartment (Amsterdam), I’ve heard a gang execution (shots were fired) in the middle of the night. I also know people who knows the DJ who was executed inside his car in the presence pf his family. There’s a problem in the Netherlands.
- zepto 5y ago
  None of these are examples of ‘drive-by shootings that kill innocent, uninvolved people’. I’m not saying that drug related violence is not a thing. It accounts for most of the gun related murders in the US, for example. Probably the same is the Netherlands. However, innocent bystanders being at risk is not a thing.
- zabzonk 5y ago
  Yeah, well said. I worked for a couple of years in the NL and didn't really feel as safe as I did in North London (which is saying something).

by zepto 5y ago

zabzonk 5y ago

> They really aren’t a thing. They really are in the UK. > cause of death of no significance at all Of course, someone's needless death is of no significance. You have probably never heard of John Donne, but: "Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankind; And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee."

smcl 5y ago
I've been out of the country for a few years but ... are you telling me that drive-by shootings have become a serious problem in the UK? Last I checked shootings of any kind were extremely rare. I would imagine drive-by shootings would therefore be so vanishingly rare that you could only really say they were "a thing" insofar as they have taken place there at some point, not as any sort of significant consideration when discussing drugs policy.
- zabzonk 5y ago
  They are not rare now - and they have always happened. There is a huge amount of gang-warfare in the UK using guns and knives (just look at London, Birmingham and Manchester) and it spills over to bystanders. And maybe look up "county lines", which is corrupting children, and spreading the drug trade, and violence, to even small towns. I am not against the use of drugs, and have used some at one point or another myself. But it is delusional to think that so long as drug use is criminalised, criminal gangs will not use extreme violence.
  - foldr 5y ago
    Between March 2018 and March 2019, there were 32 gun homicides in the whole of the UK (https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/homicideinenglandandwales/yearendingmarch2019 https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeand...). This is not consistent with the claim that drive-by shootings are a commonplace event. For comparison, there were, for example, 326 gun homicides in NYC alone in 2019 (https://efsgv.org/state/new-york/#:~:text=More%20than%20800%20New%20Yorkers,deaths%20and%20homicides%20were%2041%25 https://efsgv.org/state/new-york/#:~:text=More%20than%20800%...)
    - zabzonk 5y ago
      But of course, 32 lives are insignificant. And you haven't talked about knife murders, or other violence, such as arson. But, what the hell, you have made your point - it doesn't matter about people getting killed, so long as the numbers are what you, in your wisdom, consider "low". Also, this is 2021.
      - foldr 5y ago
        I was just addressing the claim that drive by shootings are something that happen with a significant frequency in the UK. They really aren't, as is obvious from the gun homicide stats. The UK has one of the lowest rates of gun homicide in the world, so there is no reason to put 'low' in scare quotes in this context. I'm not sure how representative pandemic stats would be, so it made sense to look at 2019. But I don't think you can seriously claim that drive by shootings have massively increased during the pandemic. Or at least, if you do claim this, it would be good to see a source.
      - smcl 5y ago
        It's 32 more than I would like for sure. But I don't think it's fair to talk about it like this is an everyday thing in the UK, particularly drive-by shootings which was the original point of contention. I do agree with you on this part of your original reply, though: > But it is delusional to think that so long as drug use is criminalised, criminal gangs will not use extreme violence. It's definitely the case that criminalization of drug use is one of the root causes of a lot of violent crime in the UK. I imagine we'd have other social issues to contend with if we followed the path of making many drugs legal, but we'd certainly have less crime related to their trafficking and distribution.

drukenemo 5y ago

I live in the Netherlands and in a good neighbourhood. One neighbouring house was blasted with heavy gun fire by a passing-by vehicle in an attempt to murder someone. So it’s not unheard of. Also, in my previous apartment (Amsterdam), I’ve heard a gang execution (shots were fired) in the middle of the night. I also know people who knows the DJ who was executed inside his car in the presence pf his family. There’s a problem in the Netherlands.

zepto 5y ago
None of these are examples of ‘drive-by shootings that kill innocent, uninvolved people’. I’m not saying that drug related violence is not a thing. It accounts for most of the gun related murders in the US, for example. Probably the same is the Netherlands. However, innocent bystanders being at risk is not a thing.
zabzonk 5y ago
Yeah, well said. I worked for a couple of years in the NL and didn't really feel as safe as I did in North London (which is saying something).