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* Consumers eating JBS beef and consumers buying exotic wood and consumers buying gold from illegal mining have flipped the Amazon Forest from Carbon Sink to So

* Consumers eating JBS beef and consumers buying exotic wood and consumers buying gold from illegal mining have flipped the Amazon Forest from Carbon Sink to Source. This collective blamming becomes tiring when the actions are self-contained in a small group of people.

42droids 5y ago
"Not all men" Surely, the actions of a "small group" of people won't affect the global climate. Let's be realistic here. Also, feel free to downvote if you feel personally attacked.
danparsonson 5y ago
That small group of people are responding to demand aren't they?
- turbinerneiter 5y ago
  Do they run ads?
- Valmar 5y ago
  The thing is, they're still responsible for cutting down the Amazon. The "responding to demand" is a complete cop-out. Stop blaming the consumer for the actions of the greedy. I wouldn't be surprised if the consumer very often isn't even aware of the sources of the materials for a lot of the stuff they buy. And it doesn't help that the consumer is all too often worried about stuff that immediately affects them, leaving them no time or energy to worry about stuff that's they're not immediately aware of. It's like blaming the consumer for the ridiculous amount of plastic corporations use for packaging when that's all that's available 99% of the time.
  - ratww 5y ago
    > It's like blaming the consumer for the ridiculous amount of plastic corporations use for packaging when that's all that's available 99% of the time. Oh, that's a huge pet peeve of mine. In some places I lived it was impossible to buy produce without plastic bags because the stores force you to use their own bags. Also you have to put different vegetables on different bags. Otherwise you can't buy. Sure one can argue that I could just boycott all the supermarkets in my city, but those people forget that I also have to fucking eat.
  - danparsonson 5y ago
    I didn't say they're not responsible too; my point is that none of us needs cheap beef or hardwood or gold (do we?) and it's widely known what these companies are doing, so we can't just shrug our shoulders and say "we didn't cut down the forest". Agree about the plastic though, that stuff is almost impossible to avoid.
- yodelshady 5y ago
  Contract killers are responding to demand, but we don't let them legally practice their trade.
  - danparsonson 5y ago
    So people who hire contract killers are not to blame? I don't understand this argument - saying "it's not our fault the cattle/hardwood logging/mining companies cut down the Amazon" is nonsense, that's been widely known about for decades and we (collectively) just bought more and more of this stuff. It's their fault and ours.
    - yodelshady 5y ago
      Blame whoever you like. If we agree an activity is harmful, we usually pass laws to stop people doing it. Other options can be applied, but only really if we don't agree, usually due to personal choice being relevant (some drugs, prostitution, seatbelts and helmets) or non-linear effects in both the utility and externalities (most pollution). Or both (cigarettes, alcohol, sugar).
    - ricardobeat 5y ago
      Public policy is always the greatest factor for change at this scale. It’s extremely unlikely that you’ll effect change by individual action, even if you enlist a church-like following.
      - danparsonson 5y ago
        Sure, and (in countries with functioning democracies) public policy responds to pressure from the public. It doesn't tend to change in the face of public apathy.
        pessimizer 5y ago
        And in countries with functioning mass media systems, the public responds to pressure from the tv.
ArnoVW 5y ago
I could be wrong, but I belief that the issue is bigger than that. If you live in the US and drive a car or eat meat, you are likely to be co-responsible. Soy culture is used to create a cheap protein feedstock for the meat industry. Modern car fuel contains ethanol (10% in the EU). The ethanol is produced by having micro organisms convert biomass. The idea being that you use the short carbon cycle (already in the eco system) instead of the long carbon cycle (stuff that has been in the earth for 200My) thus effectively reducing carbon emissions. Both of these are produced in Brasil, both have a footprint much larger than the gold or exotic wood markets (which are tiny, compared with meat and car fuel)
- nine_k 5y ago
  If you live in the U.S. and drive a car and eat meat, you are very unlikely eating illegally-raised Brazilian beef, or consuming illegally-mined Brazilian gold. Most likely, you eat U.S.-raised beef and burn gasoline from oil that comes from the U.S. or Middle East. Surely you are adding to the global warming, but it has nothing to do with Amazonian forest being illegally cut. In Brazil, most if not all cars run on ethanol [1]. The U.S. produce massive amounts of ethanol domestically [2] so, most likely, whatever gasoline you might be buying in the US, it's not using Brazilian ethanol, even though the U.S. does import some Brazilian ethanol [4], it's dwarfed by the domestic production [2]. U.S. beef is raised so efficiently that farmers manage to export it to Mexico an China, among other places [3], while receiving virtually no subsidies. You likely need to specifically look for gourmet Brazilian beef if you want to have a chance to taste a cow illegally raised on a pasture which used to be Amazonian forest. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel_in_Brazil https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel_in_Brazil [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel_in_the_United_Sta... [3]: https://www.fas.usda.gov/beef-2020-export-highlights https://www.fas.usda.gov/beef-2020-export-highlights [4]: https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_move_impcus_a2_nus_epooxe_im0_mbbl_m.htm https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_move_impcus_a2_nus_epooxe_i...
  - DennisP 5y ago
    You make it sound like Brazilian beef is some little boutique thing. We don't eat much of it in the US because we are a giant beef producer ourselves, but Brazil is the world's largest beef exporter, by a significant margin. https://www.statista.com/chart/19122/biggest-exporters-of-beef/ https://www.statista.com/chart/19122/biggest-exporters-of-be...
littlestymaar 5y ago
Tiffany & Co and JBS Foods shareholder have flipped the Amazon Forest from Carbon Sink to Source. This collective blaming becomes tiring when the actions are self-contained in a small group of profit seeking investors.
baron_harkonnen 5y ago
We all benefit from global economic activity. Do you earnestly not believe that part of the capital generated in Brazil (and of course all of other parts or resource extraction across the planet) eventually ends up as a dollar in an investment fund that a VC is going to use to fund the countless startups that employ HNers? Where do you think all the capital that drives our economy comes from? On top of that destruction of environments around the globe is what allows us to have such wonderfully cheap products here in the US (and Europe). Those cheap solar panels that everyone is excited about are because they're being built with energy from burning coal in China (the biggest factor in the price drop was going from minimal solar pv production in China to 80% today). One of the best methods of estimating CO2 emissions at an individual level is dollars spend. Highly paid technical workers getting paid from and buying goods from Amazon.com have an indirect but real relationship to the destruction of the actual Amazon. It is also worth noting that the HN community has aggressively flagged and remove many of the climate change article that have made it do the front page. I used to immediately upvote any articles I found and just wait to see how many minutes they would last. Not that placing blame does anything to solve these issues, but collective blame is appropriate if you really look at the systemic nature of all of these problems.
- pessimizer 5y ago
  Collective blame for the actions of a tiny minority is an excuse to not do anything. If it's everybody's fault, it becomes nobody's fault.

42droids 5y ago

"Not all men" Surely, the actions of a "small group" of people won't affect the global climate. Let's be realistic here. Also, feel free to downvote if you feel personally attacked.

danparsonson 5y ago

That small group of people are responding to demand aren't they?

turbinerneiter 5y ago
Do they run ads?
Valmar 5y ago
The thing is, they're still responsible for cutting down the Amazon. The "responding to demand" is a complete cop-out. Stop blaming the consumer for the actions of the greedy. I wouldn't be surprised if the consumer very often isn't even aware of the sources of the materials for a lot of the stuff they buy. And it doesn't help that the consumer is all too often worried about stuff that immediately affects them, leaving them no time or energy to worry about stuff that's they're not immediately aware of. It's like blaming the consumer for the ridiculous amount of plastic corporations use for packaging when that's all that's available 99% of the time.
- ratww 5y ago
  > It's like blaming the consumer for the ridiculous amount of plastic corporations use for packaging when that's all that's available 99% of the time. Oh, that's a huge pet peeve of mine. In some places I lived it was impossible to buy produce without plastic bags because the stores force you to use their own bags. Also you have to put different vegetables on different bags. Otherwise you can't buy. Sure one can argue that I could just boycott all the supermarkets in my city, but those people forget that I also have to fucking eat.
- danparsonson 5y ago
  I didn't say they're not responsible too; my point is that none of us needs cheap beef or hardwood or gold (do we?) and it's widely known what these companies are doing, so we can't just shrug our shoulders and say "we didn't cut down the forest". Agree about the plastic though, that stuff is almost impossible to avoid.
yodelshady 5y ago
Contract killers are responding to demand, but we don't let them legally practice their trade.
- danparsonson 5y ago
  So people who hire contract killers are not to blame? I don't understand this argument - saying "it's not our fault the cattle/hardwood logging/mining companies cut down the Amazon" is nonsense, that's been widely known about for decades and we (collectively) just bought more and more of this stuff. It's their fault and ours.
  - yodelshady 5y ago
    Blame whoever you like. If we agree an activity is harmful, we usually pass laws to stop people doing it. Other options can be applied, but only really if we don't agree, usually due to personal choice being relevant (some drugs, prostitution, seatbelts and helmets) or non-linear effects in both the utility and externalities (most pollution). Or both (cigarettes, alcohol, sugar).
  - ricardobeat 5y ago
    Public policy is always the greatest factor for change at this scale. It’s extremely unlikely that you’ll effect change by individual action, even if you enlist a church-like following.
    - danparsonson 5y ago
      Sure, and (in countries with functioning democracies) public policy responds to pressure from the public. It doesn't tend to change in the face of public apathy.
      - pessimizer 5y ago
        And in countries with functioning mass media systems, the public responds to pressure from the tv.

ArnoVW 5y ago

I could be wrong, but I belief that the issue is bigger than that. If you live in the US and drive a car or eat meat, you are likely to be co-responsible. Soy culture is used to create a cheap protein feedstock for the meat industry. Modern car fuel contains ethanol (10% in the EU). The ethanol is produced by having micro organisms convert biomass. The idea being that you use the short carbon cycle (already in the eco system) instead of the long carbon cycle (stuff that has been in the earth for 200My) thus effectively reducing carbon emissions. Both of these are produced in Brasil, both have a footprint much larger than the gold or exotic wood markets (which are tiny, compared with meat and car fuel)

nine_k 5y ago
If you live in the U.S. and drive a car and eat meat, you are very unlikely eating illegally-raised Brazilian beef, or consuming illegally-mined Brazilian gold. Most likely, you eat U.S.-raised beef and burn gasoline from oil that comes from the U.S. or Middle East. Surely you are adding to the global warming, but it has nothing to do with Amazonian forest being illegally cut. In Brazil, most if not all cars run on ethanol [1]. The U.S. produce massive amounts of ethanol domestically [2] so, most likely, whatever gasoline you might be buying in the US, it's not using Brazilian ethanol, even though the U.S. does import some Brazilian ethanol [4], it's dwarfed by the domestic production [2]. U.S. beef is raised so efficiently that farmers manage to export it to Mexico an China, among other places [3], while receiving virtually no subsidies. You likely need to specifically look for gourmet Brazilian beef if you want to have a chance to taste a cow illegally raised on a pasture which used to be Amazonian forest. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel_in_Brazil https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel_in_Brazil [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel_in_the_United_Sta... [3]: https://www.fas.usda.gov/beef-2020-export-highlights https://www.fas.usda.gov/beef-2020-export-highlights [4]: https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_move_impcus_a2_nus_epooxe_im0_mbbl_m.htm https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_move_impcus_a2_nus_epooxe_i...
- DennisP 5y ago
  You make it sound like Brazilian beef is some little boutique thing. We don't eat much of it in the US because we are a giant beef producer ourselves, but Brazil is the world's largest beef exporter, by a significant margin. https://www.statista.com/chart/19122/biggest-exporters-of-beef/ https://www.statista.com/chart/19122/biggest-exporters-of-be...

littlestymaar 5y ago

Tiffany & Co and JBS Foods shareholder have flipped the Amazon Forest from Carbon Sink to Source. This collective blaming becomes tiring when the actions are self-contained in a small group of profit seeking investors.

baron_harkonnen 5y ago

We all benefit from global economic activity. Do you earnestly not believe that part of the capital generated in Brazil (and of course all of other parts or resource extraction across the planet) eventually ends up as a dollar in an investment fund that a VC is going to use to fund the countless startups that employ HNers? Where do you think all the capital that drives our economy comes from? On top of that destruction of environments around the globe is what allows us to have such wonderfully cheap products here in the US (and Europe). Those cheap solar panels that everyone is excited about are because they're being built with energy from burning coal in China (the biggest factor in the price drop was going from minimal solar pv production in China to 80% today). One of the best methods of estimating CO2 emissions at an individual level is dollars spend. Highly paid technical workers getting paid from and buying goods from Amazon.com have an indirect but real relationship to the destruction of the actual Amazon. It is also worth noting that the HN community has aggressively flagged and remove many of the climate change article that have made it do the front page. I used to immediately upvote any articles I found and just wait to see how many minutes they would last. Not that placing blame does anything to solve these issues, but collective blame is appropriate if you really look at the systemic nature of all of these problems.

pessimizer 5y ago
Collective blame for the actions of a tiny minority is an excuse to not do anything. If it's everybody's fault, it becomes nobody's fault.