6 ms·

They're certainly scummy but, I mean, this isn't any different from the claw crane machines that are usually exempted from gambling laws under certain condition

They're certainly scummy but, I mean, this isn't any different from the claw crane machines that are usually exempted from gambling laws under certain conditions (win chance, prize value, where they're located, etc); machines that nobody expects to be fair.

MikeUt 5y ago
> machines that are usually exempted from gambling laws But that's besides the point. You don't need gambling laws to see that this is fraud, deceiving customers to pay in the expectation that the game is fair.
Y_Y 5y ago
I think some people (especially kids) do assume they're fair, and nobody around is inclined to disabuse them of that notion.
- goguy 5y ago
  The parents/guardians?
  - TeMPOraL 5y ago
    How would they know? I'm a parent, I didn't know until this thread. It's not like the arcade tells you that.
    - OJFord 5y ago
      Just worldly experience, and observation that approximately nobody wins anything ever while approximately everybody has an Oooh so close catch?
  - technothrasher 5y ago
    Even with a parent, the draw is just too attractive for kids. I tried desperately to explain to my kid that these games were rigged against him. He didn't believe me, didn't care, told me all his friends said they won, got angry at me for trying to take away his fun... He gets it now at 15, but at 6 there was no convincing him. At least the carnival midway games these days have mostly switched from rigged against the kids to everybody wins a crappy prize. But these arcade game types are straight up gambling for children.
TeMPOraL 5y ago
> machines that nobody expects to be fair I for sure did. In fact, on my long list of "someday/maybe" projects, there was this one entry sitting for some 15 years now: build a little machine for the claw crane game, that would time a button press perfectly. I just saw the video where Mark Rober does this to another arcade game[0], so I won't bother anymore - I can already guess the outcome. I also don't know anyone else in my circles who thought the claw crane was a game of chance. It looks like a game of skill, it behaves like one. And sure, maybe the crane wasn't oiled in a while, but nobody tells you that in the end, it also rolls a dice to determine whether to allow you to win. It's a big deal to me, and I think it should be a big deal for everyone. It's yet another violation of trust in society. Yet another seemingly legit business out there to scam you. When I grew up, we saw arcades as fun places to be with friends, and if we lost on what looked like a game of chance, we assumed we just sucked and need to keep playing to get better (or rather, until all our sources of coin money go dry). We didn't know the cake was a lie. When my kid grows older and I take her to an arcade, I'm going to tell her up front - you can have fun here, but these games and these people are out there to scam you. Your joy is your own - you have to take it in spite of, not thanks to, this place. I don't want to be telling her such things. I would like for her to live in a world where she can default to trusting businesses and taking their offers as good-spirited attempts of mutually beneficial transactions - not to be constantly on the guard from technically legitimate businesses trying to scam her. So, I'd very much like to see every single one of these arcades to be investigated, dragged to court for selling illegal gambling services to children, and the entire industry to be beaten up with criminal code, until every such game is either banned or has its exact rules posted on it, in a clear and unambiguous form. Fuck caveat emptor - the measure of civilization is in the things you don't have to actively worry about. -- [0] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27841623 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27841623
- Uberphallus 5y ago
  > I also don't know anyone else in my circles who thought the claw crane was a game of chance. Maybe it's cultural/regional? Everyone around me gets explained they're rigged as a kid (I'm late 30s), maybe in your country they prefer to feed the excitement/illusion of kids? I'm Spanish, and we have a saying that goes "fallar más que una escopeta de feria", roughly translated to "failing (to work properly) even more than a gun from a fair", as said guns are popularly known to be purposely misaligned, or to use pellets of lower caliber than the barrel to make them lose accuracy. So generally very few people, and almost exclusively kids, show any trust towards fair/arcade games with prizes. They may still play for fun or to burn unwanted change, though. On the other hand, many people around me needed to reach adulthood to start suspecting WWE fights aren't real.
simonh 5y ago
I think there's a difference between a a game with a skill element and a random chance element that are always consistent, and one where the game arbitrarily decides that because someone won 200 tries ago nobody playing now is allowed to win. I understand that with the claw machine the claw is unreliable, but the same claw is always equally unreliable and each time I play I could actually win, and my skill does affect that chance. With these games most of the time when you play there is a zero chance you could win, no mater how well you play.
- adolfojp 5y ago
  You can adjust the strength of the grip of the claw machine. A friend of mine worked at an arcade. He made the grip tighter whenever he had a surplus of prizes that nobody wanted and looser when he had good new stuff. He wasn't even coy about it. He would tell the kids who always hung out at the arcade when he was doing it so they could go nuts.

MikeUt 5y ago

> machines that are usually exempted from gambling laws But that's besides the point. You don't need gambling laws to see that this is fraud, deceiving customers to pay in the expectation that the game is fair.

Y_Y 5y ago

I think some people (especially kids) do assume they're fair, and nobody around is inclined to disabuse them of that notion.

goguy 5y ago
The parents/guardians?
- TeMPOraL 5y ago
  How would they know? I'm a parent, I didn't know until this thread. It's not like the arcade tells you that.
  - OJFord 5y ago
    Just worldly experience, and observation that approximately nobody wins anything ever while approximately everybody has an Oooh so close catch?
- technothrasher 5y ago
  Even with a parent, the draw is just too attractive for kids. I tried desperately to explain to my kid that these games were rigged against him. He didn't believe me, didn't care, told me all his friends said they won, got angry at me for trying to take away his fun... He gets it now at 15, but at 6 there was no convincing him. At least the carnival midway games these days have mostly switched from rigged against the kids to everybody wins a crappy prize. But these arcade game types are straight up gambling for children.

TeMPOraL 5y ago

> machines that nobody expects to be fair I for sure did. In fact, on my long list of "someday/maybe" projects, there was this one entry sitting for some 15 years now: build a little machine for the claw crane game, that would time a button press perfectly. I just saw the video where Mark Rober does this to another arcade game[0], so I won't bother anymore - I can already guess the outcome. I also don't know anyone else in my circles who thought the claw crane was a game of chance. It looks like a game of skill, it behaves like one. And sure, maybe the crane wasn't oiled in a while, but nobody tells you that in the end, it also rolls a dice to determine whether to allow you to win. It's a big deal to me, and I think it should be a big deal for everyone. It's yet another violation of trust in society. Yet another seemingly legit business out there to scam you. When I grew up, we saw arcades as fun places to be with friends, and if we lost on what looked like a game of chance, we assumed we just sucked and need to keep playing to get better (or rather, until all our sources of coin money go dry). We didn't know the cake was a lie. When my kid grows older and I take her to an arcade, I'm going to tell her up front - you can have fun here, but these games and these people are out there to scam you. Your joy is your own - you have to take it in spite of, not thanks to, this place. I don't want to be telling her such things. I would like for her to live in a world where she can default to trusting businesses and taking their offers as good-spirited attempts of mutually beneficial transactions - not to be constantly on the guard from technically legitimate businesses trying to scam her. So, I'd very much like to see every single one of these arcades to be investigated, dragged to court for selling illegal gambling services to children, and the entire industry to be beaten up with criminal code, until every such game is either banned or has its exact rules posted on it, in a clear and unambiguous form. Fuck caveat emptor - the measure of civilization is in the things you don't have to actively worry about. -- [0] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27841623 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27841623

Uberphallus 5y ago
> I also don't know anyone else in my circles who thought the claw crane was a game of chance. Maybe it's cultural/regional? Everyone around me gets explained they're rigged as a kid (I'm late 30s), maybe in your country they prefer to feed the excitement/illusion of kids? I'm Spanish, and we have a saying that goes "fallar más que una escopeta de feria", roughly translated to "failing (to work properly) even more than a gun from a fair", as said guns are popularly known to be purposely misaligned, or to use pellets of lower caliber than the barrel to make them lose accuracy. So generally very few people, and almost exclusively kids, show any trust towards fair/arcade games with prizes. They may still play for fun or to burn unwanted change, though. On the other hand, many people around me needed to reach adulthood to start suspecting WWE fights aren't real.

simonh 5y ago

I think there's a difference between a a game with a skill element and a random chance element that are always consistent, and one where the game arbitrarily decides that because someone won 200 tries ago nobody playing now is allowed to win. I understand that with the claw machine the claw is unreliable, but the same claw is always equally unreliable and each time I play I could actually win, and my skill does affect that chance. With these games most of the time when you play there is a zero chance you could win, no mater how well you play.

adolfojp 5y ago
You can adjust the strength of the grip of the claw machine. A friend of mine worked at an arcade. He made the grip tighter whenever he had a surplus of prizes that nobody wanted and looser when he had good new stuff. He wasn't even coy about it. He would tell the kids who always hung out at the arcade when he was doing it so they could go nuts.