4 ms·

This is really cool. I like that the author clearly sees a lot of things from Apple's side, particularly with regard to ClarisWorks, and its market positioning

by rconti 5y ago

This is really cool. I like that the author clearly sees a lot of things from Apple's side, particularly with regard to ClarisWorks, and its market positioning vs Office and MS Works. It makes sense that a ClarisWorks user would be less likely to upgrade to MS Office anyway, vs an MS Works user, since you're now buying from a different vendor. But he candidly says that MS Works isn't as good as ClarisWorks anyway. I don't remember how things went down in the browser wars. The author of the email seems to think Apple might not be willing to ship a non-OS X-native [Netscape] Navigator with new machines. I do remember IE being popular enough on OS 9 or X, but I can't remember which, and I certainly don't remember if Navigator or IE shipped with OS X, but it had to have SOMETHING.

alsetmusic 5y ago
> I do remember IE being popular enough on OS 9 or X, but I can't remember which, and I certainly don't remember if Navigator or IE shipped with OS X, but it had to have SOMETHING. From Wikipedia: > As a result of the five-year agreement between Apple and Microsoft in 1997, it was the default browser on the classic Mac OS and Mac OS X from 1998 until it was superseded by Apple's own Safari web browser in 2003 with the release of Mac OS X 10.3 "Panther". https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Explorer_for_Mac_OS_X https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Explorer_for_Mac_OS...
tablespoon 5y ago
> But he candidly says that MS Works isn't as good as ClarisWorks anyway. Keeping MS Works bad may have been deliberate on their part, to avoid cannibalizing Office sales.
- mkl 5y ago
  I'm sure it was. MS Works had tonnes of limitations that you hit pretty easily.
blihp 5y ago
I believe IE was bundled starting with OS 8 or 9. (definitely 9, but might have started with 8) The document explains a lot of the 'gushing' Steve Jobs was doing about IE around that time. Sounds like there was at least a handshake agreement to push IE hard on Apple's side which they definitely did. (i.e. this goes beyond the previously published agreements re: bundling it etc as Steve in particular was really doing a hard sell on IE to Mac users at the time at a couple of events) The document is also interesting as it helps explain why ClarisWorks died on the vine the way it did. I remember filing a bug report on a years old problem around that time for a family member which Apple never did fix, or anything else, in ClarisWorks until they eventually abandoned it completely years later. Too bad, it was a nice user-friendly, entry-level productivity suite.
- plushpuffin 5y ago
  It's hard to search for this kind of thing to back me up, but I vaguely remember IE 5 on Mac not only being better than Netscape, but also being the best implementation of IE across all platforms. It had a ton of unique features and its rendering engine was superior to the Trident engine used by IE on Windows. Tasman (layout engine) - Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tasman_(layout_engine) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tasman_(layout_engine)
  - _moof 5y ago
    I recall this too (with equal vagueness). I remember even at the time talking about IE for Mac being a great browser. Basically a completely different product than its Windows counterpart.
    - Cockbrand 5y ago
      It was a great browser, which even us hardcore Macians had to admit. It was so much better than the Windows IE, and MS took great care to make it feel Mac-like. So apart from the strange in the top right corner, it was a very good Mac app.
    - tinus_hn 5y ago
      It was way ahead of IE for Windows. http://tantek.com/log/2004/06.html http://tantek.com/log/2004/06.html
  - mietek 5y ago
    It still regularly crashed my OS 9 Mac.
    - Cockbrand 5y ago
      But then, what didn't? ;-)
  - glandium 5y ago
    If I recall correctly, it had the best CSS support at the time.
Lammy 5y ago
Mac OS 8.x and 9.x shipped with both Netscape and IE4, 4.5, then 5, but IE was the default for the "Browse the Web" alias on the Desktop of new installations. Mac OS X 10.0 shipped with a very early Carbonized IE 5.0 that was unstable enough to earn a "prerelease" label on the startup screen. At the time I remember a lot of people did actually prefer to use the Classic OS version of IE 5.0 over the IE beta, at least until OmniWeb 4.0 came out around the same time as OS X 10.1 https://www.macworld.com/article/151892/omniweb.html https://www.macworld.com/article/151892/omniweb.html Announcing the browser deal is the only time I heard an entire crowd boo Stebe https://youtu.be/WxOp5mBY9IY?t=154 https://youtu.be/WxOp5mBY9IY?t=154 It's also amusing how Steve was still obviously using Concurrence instead of a Mac to do these early iCEO-era presentations http://www.kevra.org/TheBestOfNext/ThirdPartyProducts/ThirdPartySoftware/PersonalProductivity/Concurrence/Concurrence.html http://www.kevra.org/TheBestOfNext/ThirdPartyProducts/ThirdP...
kergonath 5y ago
IE was great on OS 8 and OS 9. It’s shortcomings were becoming annoying and embarrassing by Jaguar (OS X 10.2), at which point Safari brought huge quality of life changes. IE for Mac was better than IE for Windows at that time as well.

by rconti 5y ago

alsetmusic 5y ago

> I do remember IE being popular enough on OS 9 or X, but I can't remember which, and I certainly don't remember if Navigator or IE shipped with OS X, but it had to have SOMETHING. From Wikipedia: > As a result of the five-year agreement between Apple and Microsoft in 1997, it was the default browser on the classic Mac OS and Mac OS X from 1998 until it was superseded by Apple's own Safari web browser in 2003 with the release of Mac OS X 10.3 "Panther". https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Explorer_for_Mac_OS_X https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Explorer_for_Mac_OS...

tablespoon 5y ago

> But he candidly says that MS Works isn't as good as ClarisWorks anyway. Keeping MS Works bad may have been deliberate on their part, to avoid cannibalizing Office sales.

mkl 5y ago
I'm sure it was. MS Works had tonnes of limitations that you hit pretty easily.

blihp 5y ago

I believe IE was bundled starting with OS 8 or 9. (definitely 9, but might have started with 8) The document explains a lot of the 'gushing' Steve Jobs was doing about IE around that time. Sounds like there was at least a handshake agreement to push IE hard on Apple's side which they definitely did. (i.e. this goes beyond the previously published agreements re: bundling it etc as Steve in particular was really doing a hard sell on IE to Mac users at the time at a couple of events) The document is also interesting as it helps explain why ClarisWorks died on the vine the way it did. I remember filing a bug report on a years old problem around that time for a family member which Apple never did fix, or anything else, in ClarisWorks until they eventually abandoned it completely years later. Too bad, it was a nice user-friendly, entry-level productivity suite.

plushpuffin 5y ago
It's hard to search for this kind of thing to back me up, but I vaguely remember IE 5 on Mac not only being better than Netscape, but also being the best implementation of IE across all platforms. It had a ton of unique features and its rendering engine was superior to the Trident engine used by IE on Windows. Tasman (layout engine) - Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tasman_(layout_engine) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tasman_(layout_engine)
- _moof 5y ago
  I recall this too (with equal vagueness). I remember even at the time talking about IE for Mac being a great browser. Basically a completely different product than its Windows counterpart.
  - Cockbrand 5y ago
    It was a great browser, which even us hardcore Macians had to admit. It was so much better than the Windows IE, and MS took great care to make it feel Mac-like. So apart from the strange in the top right corner, it was a very good Mac app.
  - tinus_hn 5y ago
    It was way ahead of IE for Windows. http://tantek.com/log/2004/06.html http://tantek.com/log/2004/06.html
- mietek 5y ago
  It still regularly crashed my OS 9 Mac.
  - Cockbrand 5y ago
    But then, what didn't? ;-)
- glandium 5y ago
  If I recall correctly, it had the best CSS support at the time.

Lammy 5y ago

Mac OS 8.x and 9.x shipped with both Netscape and IE4, 4.5, then 5, but IE was the default for the "Browse the Web" alias on the Desktop of new installations. Mac OS X 10.0 shipped with a very early Carbonized IE 5.0 that was unstable enough to earn a "prerelease" label on the startup screen. At the time I remember a lot of people did actually prefer to use the Classic OS version of IE 5.0 over the IE beta, at least until OmniWeb 4.0 came out around the same time as OS X 10.1 https://www.macworld.com/article/151892/omniweb.html https://www.macworld.com/article/151892/omniweb.html Announcing the browser deal is the only time I heard an entire crowd boo Stebe https://youtu.be/WxOp5mBY9IY?t=154 https://youtu.be/WxOp5mBY9IY?t=154 It's also amusing how Steve was still obviously using Concurrence instead of a Mac to do these early iCEO-era presentations http://www.kevra.org/TheBestOfNext/ThirdPartyProducts/ThirdPartySoftware/PersonalProductivity/Concurrence/Concurrence.html http://www.kevra.org/TheBestOfNext/ThirdPartyProducts/ThirdP...

kergonath 5y ago

IE was great on OS 8 and OS 9. It’s shortcomings were becoming annoying and embarrassing by Jaguar (OS X 10.2), at which point Safari brought huge quality of life changes. IE for Mac was better than IE for Windows at that time as well.