5 ms·

"Toxic" is just a catchier-sounding synonym for "harmful." It doesn't imply intent — in fact, that's one of its strengths, and one of the major components in th

"Toxic" is just a catchier-sounding synonym for "harmful." It doesn't imply intent — in fact, that's one of its strengths, and one of the major components in the shift in the way we collectively talk about things over the past couple decades. Part of the conversation around race, for example, has been an awareness by more and more people that unintentional harms are far more prevalent than intentional ones, and in total are something to be taken seriously. What if everyone is a "bad" parent? What if no parent lives up to their child's expectation? Intentional harm or not, people coming of age have to reckon with the gap between their idealized understanding of/hope for their parents, and their increasing understanding of the tradeoffs adult life demands. Personally, I think putting that reckoning front and center is a good thing. Burying our resentments doesn't solve things—talking them through and understanding each others' perspectives does.

rayiner 5y ago
Resentment arises from a gap between expectations and reality. Maybe the problem is the idealized expectations. And talking about things doesn’t help that. Kids need to learn that life sucks and then you die and really internalize that in order to bring expectations in line with reality.
- nathanaldensr 5y ago
  Agreed. Except now, idealization doesn't only apply to "white picket fence" experiences or "going to college." Now it applies to inner identity, and sometimes aggressive or even militant external identities. It's an impossible situation for a parent. Sometimes, the only way for the parent to survive emotionally is to allow the child to fail and hopefully learn from the failure.
  - Apocryphon 5y ago
    Have to wonder if that identity is the final refuge of generations that feel helpless and worse-off than prior ones.
    - dabbledash 5y ago
      Which suggests maybe we aren’t doing a good job teaching history.
      - NortySpock 5y ago
        Or someone isn't looking out the front windscreen to worry about climate change looming ahead...
      - rayiner 5y ago
        Or current events.
- mcguire 5y ago
  Are you sure? Because there are more lessons that I have seen people learn from their parents... * no one cares about your opinions or ideas, * no one has any actual affection for you; they only appear to when you have something they want, * in a choice between your physical or mental well-being and their short-term happiness, you take a rather distant second, * and then you die.
- koolba 5y ago
  > Kids need to learn that life sucks and then you die and really internalize that in order to bring expectations in line with reality. I'm convinced that the world is cleanly divided into two categories of people. People that internalize this early in life, and people that never do at all. Along with learning to be bored, it's the most important life lesson you can pass on to the next generation to ensure a happy productive life.
wonderwonder 5y ago
I think if your kid grows up knowing you love them and you do your best to educate and teach them right from wrong then you are probably a good enough parent. "Personally, I think putting that reckoning front and center is a good thing" I really disagree. If you parent was a monster, then absolutely. Otherwise, if they met the 3 points above then what good does calling them out and telling them that what they did was in your mind, harmful? They cant change anything and all it will do is make them react in hurt; they are still just people and you are invalidating their core life achievement. My parents were far from perfect, but they loved me and did their best, what would calling them out on any perceived failures do? I feel like people have lost the ability to just take things in stride these days. I can only speak from the personal experience of me and my siblings of course. My brother and I are very different in almost every way especially politics (He is pro Trump, I am not) but we just assume the other is coming from an honest place and doing what they think is best in their mind for their family and have good conversations and our families hang out often. My sister is unable to take anything in stride and assumes anyone that has different opinions than her is coming from a vindictive place. She has elected to completely remove herself from the family based on us not being far enough left for her (and I am pretty left). I find if one just assumes positive intent on another's actions as long as reality and not being a sucker allows then things are good. I always just assumed positive intent on my parents past actions or simple human flaw and all is good.
- watwut 5y ago
  People estranged from parents are often reacting to parents still doing harm. It dont stop when kid grow - the narcisstic or controlling or abusive parent dont change when kid grows.
- throw58942 5y ago
  > My parents were far from perfect, but they loved me and did their best Not all parents do that, when a divorce happened at least one of them thought that as well. The thing is: not everything is abuse but things can still be bad enough as also pointed out in the article. That's when you call it toxic I guess. It's this fuzzy new word to describe some hard to grasp behaviour that is maybe only so hard to grasp because it's that outlandish. One time I was with my sister and my father on holiday - my mother gave us a cell-phone so we could call in case he would abduct us. In any case, my mother was completely overwhelmed with raising 2 kids and cut some corners. Also my father did his best to put pressure on my mother, mostly financially. (He moved far away and blames anything bad that happened on my mother or me) And the list goes on. My sister is completely unwilling to talk about any of this. My father is like described in the article saying I'm rewriting history and having a complete lack of empathy. Is this abuse? Probably not, unless you go with a crazy strict definition. But toxic for sure. What upsets me the most that this is just some really fuzzy stuff that happened, I cannot pin-point any isolated root cause. So to come up with a reasonable explanation why I chose estrangement, I would have to tell quite a long story and some details are too personal. Still I'm much happier now.
ellyagg 5y ago
It's not "just" anything and it's definitely not just catchier. Toxic is a far more forceful word that is often used to convey more force than is deserved for the situation. It steals discussion territory without justifying its claims. It's a bit like a clickbaity headline.
- mcguire 5y ago
  Have you ever had a long-term relationship with someone who would lie to your face, or lie to others about you, in order to get something they want? There are plenty of people in the world who you would better off just staying away from.
kazinator 5y ago
Toxic implies that some negative influence seeps out of people or situations, which causes harm proportional to the duration of exposure.
teddyh 5y ago
> "Toxic" is just a catchier-sounding synonym for "harmful." It’s more subtle than that. “Toxic” is used as a synonym for “irredeemably harmful”, and that very distinction makes all the difference. If a person is labeled a “jerk”, they are potentially redeemable and able to be reformed, but if someone is labeled as “toxic”, the label itself declares that there is no helping them. The label itself prescribes ostracism.
- GavinMcG 5y ago
  I mean, same with "harmful" right? But I've rarely heard a person described that way. Usually it's a behavior.
  - teddyh 5y ago
    Since “harmful” isn’t generally used to describe people, it’s not generally an issue. “Toxic”, on the other hand, I see applied to people all the time.
- bseidensticker 5y ago
  I don't think "toxic" means "irredeemably harmful". It just means harmful and makes no judgement on intent.
  - pkghost 5y ago
    It's more than harmful—prior to the latest common usage, toxic usually meant potentially lethal for sufficient dosage. So, while it is indeed free of connotations of intent, it evokes disgust and, in fact, invites ostracism. If something is so dangerous that it can kill you, there's rarely much wisdom in attempting to talk it out of being lethal. Better to just remove it from your environment. In any case, I agree that the word is tragically overworked. And don't we all know that overwork can be toxic.
    - bseidensticker 5y ago
      uh ok, sounds like you've thought about this a lot. I just meant to say that *to me*, toxic doesn't imply irredeemable. It's just a popular word for harmful.
mcguire 5y ago
What happens if one party, either parent or child, will not "understand the other's perspective"? What happens if "talking them through" just turns into another replay of the same argument? I have come to the conclusion that my parents, who of course had their flaws, were damn nigh perfect.
malandrew 5y ago
If all you focus on are the harmful aspects, you're dismissing the beneficial aspects. All parents will both benefit and harm their child. Hopefully in most cases, the former will be intentional and the latter be unintentional. The extreme focus lately on the latter, harm, has led many to ignore if not outright dismiss the former. That's not healthy. What's the point in having children and raising them as best as you can if the talking heads in society will treat them to focus on your unintentional harms and resent you? I myself am one of four children and I'm the only one that had a healthy relationship with both our parents because I ignored society's pressure to focus on people's failures and instead consider parents as flawed people doing their best given their upbringing, values, effort and the knowledge/information they had available to them at the time. My three siblings all have have issues with one or both parents and they aren't doing as well I me emotionally and I feel bad for them but also know it isn't entirely their fault since society has fed them toxicity. That's right: society teaching people to focus on how others are toxic to you can be as toxic as those people are and often is far more toxic than any toxicity you experienced from the people you're been taught to consider toxic. Yet, we never discuss how all these discussions about "toxic people" are more toxic that the people we're discussing.

rayiner 5y ago

Resentment arises from a gap between expectations and reality. Maybe the problem is the idealized expectations. And talking about things doesn’t help that. Kids need to learn that life sucks and then you die and really internalize that in order to bring expectations in line with reality.

nathanaldensr 5y ago
Agreed. Except now, idealization doesn't only apply to "white picket fence" experiences or "going to college." Now it applies to inner identity, and sometimes aggressive or even militant external identities. It's an impossible situation for a parent. Sometimes, the only way for the parent to survive emotionally is to allow the child to fail and hopefully learn from the failure.
- Apocryphon 5y ago
  Have to wonder if that identity is the final refuge of generations that feel helpless and worse-off than prior ones.
  - dabbledash 5y ago
    Which suggests maybe we aren’t doing a good job teaching history.
    - NortySpock 5y ago
      Or someone isn't looking out the front windscreen to worry about climate change looming ahead...
    - rayiner 5y ago
      Or current events.
mcguire 5y ago
Are you sure? Because there are more lessons that I have seen people learn from their parents... * no one cares about your opinions or ideas, * no one has any actual affection for you; they only appear to when you have something they want, * in a choice between your physical or mental well-being and their short-term happiness, you take a rather distant second, * and then you die.
koolba 5y ago
> Kids need to learn that life sucks and then you die and really internalize that in order to bring expectations in line with reality. I'm convinced that the world is cleanly divided into two categories of people. People that internalize this early in life, and people that never do at all. Along with learning to be bored, it's the most important life lesson you can pass on to the next generation to ensure a happy productive life.

wonderwonder 5y ago

I think if your kid grows up knowing you love them and you do your best to educate and teach them right from wrong then you are probably a good enough parent. "Personally, I think putting that reckoning front and center is a good thing" I really disagree. If you parent was a monster, then absolutely. Otherwise, if they met the 3 points above then what good does calling them out and telling them that what they did was in your mind, harmful? They cant change anything and all it will do is make them react in hurt; they are still just people and you are invalidating their core life achievement. My parents were far from perfect, but they loved me and did their best, what would calling them out on any perceived failures do? I feel like people have lost the ability to just take things in stride these days. I can only speak from the personal experience of me and my siblings of course. My brother and I are very different in almost every way especially politics (He is pro Trump, I am not) but we just assume the other is coming from an honest place and doing what they think is best in their mind for their family and have good conversations and our families hang out often. My sister is unable to take anything in stride and assumes anyone that has different opinions than her is coming from a vindictive place. She has elected to completely remove herself from the family based on us not being far enough left for her (and I am pretty left). I find if one just assumes positive intent on another's actions as long as reality and not being a sucker allows then things are good. I always just assumed positive intent on my parents past actions or simple human flaw and all is good.

watwut 5y ago
People estranged from parents are often reacting to parents still doing harm. It dont stop when kid grow - the narcisstic or controlling or abusive parent dont change when kid grows.
throw58942 5y ago
> My parents were far from perfect, but they loved me and did their best Not all parents do that, when a divorce happened at least one of them thought that as well. The thing is: not everything is abuse but things can still be bad enough as also pointed out in the article. That's when you call it toxic I guess. It's this fuzzy new word to describe some hard to grasp behaviour that is maybe only so hard to grasp because it's that outlandish. One time I was with my sister and my father on holiday - my mother gave us a cell-phone so we could call in case he would abduct us. In any case, my mother was completely overwhelmed with raising 2 kids and cut some corners. Also my father did his best to put pressure on my mother, mostly financially. (He moved far away and blames anything bad that happened on my mother or me) And the list goes on. My sister is completely unwilling to talk about any of this. My father is like described in the article saying I'm rewriting history and having a complete lack of empathy. Is this abuse? Probably not, unless you go with a crazy strict definition. But toxic for sure. What upsets me the most that this is just some really fuzzy stuff that happened, I cannot pin-point any isolated root cause. So to come up with a reasonable explanation why I chose estrangement, I would have to tell quite a long story and some details are too personal. Still I'm much happier now.

ellyagg 5y ago

It's not "just" anything and it's definitely not just catchier. Toxic is a far more forceful word that is often used to convey more force than is deserved for the situation. It steals discussion territory without justifying its claims. It's a bit like a clickbaity headline.

mcguire 5y ago
Have you ever had a long-term relationship with someone who would lie to your face, or lie to others about you, in order to get something they want? There are plenty of people in the world who you would better off just staying away from.

kazinator 5y ago

Toxic implies that some negative influence seeps out of people or situations, which causes harm proportional to the duration of exposure.

teddyh 5y ago

> "Toxic" is just a catchier-sounding synonym for "harmful." It’s more subtle than that. “Toxic” is used as a synonym for “irredeemably harmful”, and that very distinction makes all the difference. If a person is labeled a “jerk”, they are potentially redeemable and able to be reformed, but if someone is labeled as “toxic”, the label itself declares that there is no helping them. The label itself prescribes ostracism.

GavinMcG 5y ago
I mean, same with "harmful" right? But I've rarely heard a person described that way. Usually it's a behavior.
- teddyh 5y ago
  Since “harmful” isn’t generally used to describe people, it’s not generally an issue. “Toxic”, on the other hand, I see applied to people all the time.
bseidensticker 5y ago
I don't think "toxic" means "irredeemably harmful". It just means harmful and makes no judgement on intent.
- pkghost 5y ago
  It's more than harmful—prior to the latest common usage, toxic usually meant potentially lethal for sufficient dosage. So, while it is indeed free of connotations of intent, it evokes disgust and, in fact, invites ostracism. If something is so dangerous that it can kill you, there's rarely much wisdom in attempting to talk it out of being lethal. Better to just remove it from your environment. In any case, I agree that the word is tragically overworked. And don't we all know that overwork can be toxic.
  - bseidensticker 5y ago
    uh ok, sounds like you've thought about this a lot. I just meant to say that *to me*, toxic doesn't imply irredeemable. It's just a popular word for harmful.

mcguire 5y ago

What happens if one party, either parent or child, will not "understand the other's perspective"? What happens if "talking them through" just turns into another replay of the same argument? I have come to the conclusion that my parents, who of course had their flaws, were damn nigh perfect.

malandrew 5y ago

If all you focus on are the harmful aspects, you're dismissing the beneficial aspects. All parents will both benefit and harm their child. Hopefully in most cases, the former will be intentional and the latter be unintentional. The extreme focus lately on the latter, harm, has led many to ignore if not outright dismiss the former. That's not healthy. What's the point in having children and raising them as best as you can if the talking heads in society will treat them to focus on your unintentional harms and resent you? I myself am one of four children and I'm the only one that had a healthy relationship with both our parents because I ignored society's pressure to focus on people's failures and instead consider parents as flawed people doing their best given their upbringing, values, effort and the knowledge/information they had available to them at the time. My three siblings all have have issues with one or both parents and they aren't doing as well I me emotionally and I feel bad for them but also know it isn't entirely their fault since society has fed them toxicity. That's right: society teaching people to focus on how others are toxic to you can be as toxic as those people are and often is far more toxic than any toxicity you experienced from the people you're been taught to consider toxic. Yet, we never discuss how all these discussions about "toxic people" are more toxic that the people we're discussing.