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> Tighter emission limits for cars, which are expected to effectively end new petrol and diesel vehicle sales by 2035 I hope this doesn't spell the end for the

> Tighter emission limits for cars, which are expected to effectively end new petrol and diesel vehicle sales by 2035 I hope this doesn't spell the end for the ICE. That would be heartbreaking.

fogihujy 5y ago
Many EU-countries are planning a ban on sales of petrol and diesel cars starting 2030. Combustion engines running on bio fuels will probably stick around until electric veichles cover all the fringe cases. Diesel engines won't go anywhere as they're needed for stuff like farming equipment, but they can run on bio-fuels aswell. Not to mention the fact that the European car fleet is relatively old and will take a long time to modernize. With no fast way to transition from fossil fuels to electric, I simply can't understand why we don't focus on synthetic fuels made with renewable energy, at least as a stop-gap solution.
- Macha 5y ago
  Are biofuels actually better if the problem you're trying to solve is carbon emissions? (And not just fossil fuel depletion)
  - fogihujy 5y ago
    Yes and no. If done right, you can get bio-gas from old landfills and food waste, and that's gas that'll end up in the atmosphere anyway -- we might as well use it. Then there's the issue of growing crops for use as bio-fuel. In theory it's a renewable energy source, but in the real world it'll use valuable land that we will need for climate-friendly but inefficient organic farming for food.
- pjerem 5y ago
  Synthetic fuels emits the same carbon dioxide amounts than conventional fuels. I don’t see how this is helping to reduce emissions.
  - fogihujy 5y ago
    Yeah, it would require a surplus of renewable energy to be worth it.
- GordonS 5y ago
  > Diesel engines won't go anywhere as they're needed for stuff like farming equipment Is there a reason tractors, combines etc couldn't be electric too? I don't know about the mega tractors of the massive farms of US and Canada, but at least here in Europe, tractor engines have surprisingly few horse powers.
  - fogihujy 5y ago
    It's about hours per tank/recharge. They run pretty much 24/7 during spring and authumn. Filling the tank takes a few minutes while recharging a battery takes hours. I'm sure we'll get there at some point, but many farmers have equipment that are up to 50 years old. It's going to take many decades before it's all electric.
revscat 5y ago
Why? Some romantic attachment viz Red Barchetta? The ICE has literally been the engine of humanity’s doom.
- yakshaving_jgt 5y ago
  I think some ICEs are indeed beautiful, and that beauty is gone with all-electric cars. I think there's no beauty at all in any of the Teslas, which I understand is tantamount to heresy on a website like this. I also prefer a less accurate and less featureful automatic mechanical wrist watch to any kind of "smart" watch.
  - kergonath 5y ago
    Some of them truly are. But we need to let go of that beauty and keep it in museums, alongside also beautiful old steam engines, for the sake of our future.
    - yakshaving_jgt 5y ago
      I don't get it. What proportion of the ICE emissions is caused by people who appreciate ICEs recreationally? Surely — like any other optimisation process — you would start with the greatest offenders, i.e., passenger aircraft, road freight, and the cars driven by people who don't actually want to drive cars in the first place.
      - revscat 5y ago
        The system needed to support their narcissism — refineries, drilling operations, finance, war, and the emissions caused by them all — are the more significant problem.
      - kergonath 5y ago
        The industry and infrastructure supporting this, from drilling, extracting, transporting, refining, and distributing products from oil needs to disappear. Once it is done, some people will keep them around, sure, and that’s not necessarily a problem. But it will be impractical to do for most people, like for the working- and middle-class people who enjoy driving and good engineering.
jeroenhd 5y ago
I think they'll stick around for the applications they're good at. Big, heavy machinery, sports cars, those kinds of applications. You won't see many of them on the roads, though, or be able to easily buy new ones. Like steam engines, they'll become museum pieces, hobbyist equipment or reminders to a bygone era. Don't hold your breath, though. A car can easily last 10 years, 25 if made and maintained well, much longer with special care. We'll be seeing them at least into the 2050s, though they'll probably get banned from places like city standards as emission standards become stricter.

> Tighter emission limits for cars, which are expected to effectively end new petrol and diesel vehicle sales by 2035 I hope this doesn't spell the end for the ICE. That would be heartbreaking.

fogihujy 5y ago

Many EU-countries are planning a ban on sales of petrol and diesel cars starting 2030. Combustion engines running on bio fuels will probably stick around until electric veichles cover all the fringe cases. Diesel engines won't go anywhere as they're needed for stuff like farming equipment, but they can run on bio-fuels aswell. Not to mention the fact that the European car fleet is relatively old and will take a long time to modernize. With no fast way to transition from fossil fuels to electric, I simply can't understand why we don't focus on synthetic fuels made with renewable energy, at least as a stop-gap solution.

Macha 5y ago
Are biofuels actually better if the problem you're trying to solve is carbon emissions? (And not just fossil fuel depletion)
- fogihujy 5y ago
  Yes and no. If done right, you can get bio-gas from old landfills and food waste, and that's gas that'll end up in the atmosphere anyway -- we might as well use it. Then there's the issue of growing crops for use as bio-fuel. In theory it's a renewable energy source, but in the real world it'll use valuable land that we will need for climate-friendly but inefficient organic farming for food.
pjerem 5y ago
Synthetic fuels emits the same carbon dioxide amounts than conventional fuels. I don’t see how this is helping to reduce emissions.
- fogihujy 5y ago
  Yeah, it would require a surplus of renewable energy to be worth it.
GordonS 5y ago
> Diesel engines won't go anywhere as they're needed for stuff like farming equipment Is there a reason tractors, combines etc couldn't be electric too? I don't know about the mega tractors of the massive farms of US and Canada, but at least here in Europe, tractor engines have surprisingly few horse powers.
- fogihujy 5y ago
  It's about hours per tank/recharge. They run pretty much 24/7 during spring and authumn. Filling the tank takes a few minutes while recharging a battery takes hours. I'm sure we'll get there at some point, but many farmers have equipment that are up to 50 years old. It's going to take many decades before it's all electric.

revscat 5y ago

Why? Some romantic attachment viz Red Barchetta? The ICE has literally been the engine of humanity’s doom.

yakshaving_jgt 5y ago
I think some ICEs are indeed beautiful, and that beauty is gone with all-electric cars. I think there's no beauty at all in any of the Teslas, which I understand is tantamount to heresy on a website like this. I also prefer a less accurate and less featureful automatic mechanical wrist watch to any kind of "smart" watch.
- kergonath 5y ago
  Some of them truly are. But we need to let go of that beauty and keep it in museums, alongside also beautiful old steam engines, for the sake of our future.
  - yakshaving_jgt 5y ago
    I don't get it. What proportion of the ICE emissions is caused by people who appreciate ICEs recreationally? Surely — like any other optimisation process — you would start with the greatest offenders, i.e., passenger aircraft, road freight, and the cars driven by people who don't actually want to drive cars in the first place.
    - revscat 5y ago
      The system needed to support their narcissism — refineries, drilling operations, finance, war, and the emissions caused by them all — are the more significant problem.
    - kergonath 5y ago
      The industry and infrastructure supporting this, from drilling, extracting, transporting, refining, and distributing products from oil needs to disappear. Once it is done, some people will keep them around, sure, and that’s not necessarily a problem. But it will be impractical to do for most people, like for the working- and middle-class people who enjoy driving and good engineering.

jeroenhd 5y ago

I think they'll stick around for the applications they're good at. Big, heavy machinery, sports cars, those kinds of applications. You won't see many of them on the roads, though, or be able to easily buy new ones. Like steam engines, they'll become museum pieces, hobbyist equipment or reminders to a bygone era. Don't hold your breath, though. A car can easily last 10 years, 25 if made and maintained well, much longer with special care. We'll be seeing them at least into the 2050s, though they'll probably get banned from places like city standards as emission standards become stricter.