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Many, many EU citizens can not afford Teslas or equivalently priced EVs. Even the electric version of the common VW Golf is 30-to-50% more expensive than its IC

Many, many EU citizens can not afford Teslas or equivalently priced EVs. Even the electric version of the common VW Golf is 30-to-50% more expensive than its ICE counter-part (which is not that cheap, either).

xyzzyz 5y ago
Yeah. If you’re American, imagine being being 25% poorer, and cars being 50% more expensive (due to excise taxes, displacement taxes, 20%+ VAT and more) — that’s the reality faced by Europeans.
- SECProto 5y ago
  Make sure you also imagine that competent public transport and/or active transportation options are pretty widely available as alternatives.
  - f6v 5y ago
    Major cities such as Berlin, Hamburg, Paris, and Vienna have good public transport network. But many people live in smaller cities/outskirts where car is mandatory.
  - xyzzyz 5y ago
    This is not the reality that most Europeans live in. Europeans who live in major cities might enjoy their good public transport options, but in minor cities, towns and rural areas, public transport is crap to non-existent. US has 800 cars per 1000 people, but Italy and Spain have 650/1000 and even Poland, which is significantly poorer than US, has over 700 cars per 1000 people. In Europe, car ownership is only slightly less of a necessity than it is in the US, and I think if you look at the data that measure cars not per capita, but per household, the gap in car ownership between US and European countries would be even smaller.
    - SECProto 5y ago
      > Europeans who live in major cities might enjoy their good public transport options, but in minor cities, towns and rural areas, public transport is crap to non-existent I just opened up google maps, picked out two random small towns in Germany, and the driving distance between them is 200km/2hrs, while the transit length is 3hrs (with a transfer in a major city). Doing the same in the Northeast, one of the best areas for transit in the US, resulted in two towns 120miles/2hrs drive distance, and 18hr/6 transfers transit distance. So yes, a car is more convenient in both cases, but transit is a competent alternative (which is what I said). France and Italy had comparable results to Germany, Spain did not. Germany, France, and Italy makes up roughly half of the EU population (add in Belgium or the Netherlands if you wanna be precise, they've got decent transit too). > US has 800 cars per 1000 people, but Italy and Spain have 650/1000 and even Poland, which is significantly poorer than US, has over 700 cars per 1000 You appear to have taken this article [1], and picked out the top three EU countries. > In Europe, car ownership is only slightly less of a necessity than it is in the US, and I think if you look at the data that measure cars not per capita, but per household, the gap in car ownership between US and European countries would be even smaller. "Owning a car" is not the same metric as "Needing to own a car to do literally anything because there are no alternatives". Germany, France, and Italy all rank higher than the US in annual passenger-km's of rail travel, despite each having populations 1/5th to 1/4th the size of the US[2]. Or look up modal share by country for other info - there's no handy Wikipedia summary, unfortunately, but for example, Germany is about 30% transit commutes. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_vehicles_per_capita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_vehicles_... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_rail_usage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_rail_usag...
      - f6v 5y ago
        I lived in a rural area in Germany. My experience was that grocery shopping and just getting around using public transport is much less convenient than in a big city. I almost felt handicapped without a car, and the majority of people around me drived one. Having children completely tips the scale. And yes, there’s biking, but doing that while it’s raining is a complete different story.
rorykoehler 5y ago
Only because we haven't priced in the externalized costs of ICE (anywhere in the world).

xyzzyz 5y ago

Yeah. If you’re American, imagine being being 25% poorer, and cars being 50% more expensive (due to excise taxes, displacement taxes, 20%+ VAT and more) — that’s the reality faced by Europeans.

SECProto 5y ago
Make sure you also imagine that competent public transport and/or active transportation options are pretty widely available as alternatives.
- f6v 5y ago
  Major cities such as Berlin, Hamburg, Paris, and Vienna have good public transport network. But many people live in smaller cities/outskirts where car is mandatory.
- xyzzyz 5y ago
  This is not the reality that most Europeans live in. Europeans who live in major cities might enjoy their good public transport options, but in minor cities, towns and rural areas, public transport is crap to non-existent. US has 800 cars per 1000 people, but Italy and Spain have 650/1000 and even Poland, which is significantly poorer than US, has over 700 cars per 1000 people. In Europe, car ownership is only slightly less of a necessity than it is in the US, and I think if you look at the data that measure cars not per capita, but per household, the gap in car ownership between US and European countries would be even smaller.
  - SECProto 5y ago
    > Europeans who live in major cities might enjoy their good public transport options, but in minor cities, towns and rural areas, public transport is crap to non-existent I just opened up google maps, picked out two random small towns in Germany, and the driving distance between them is 200km/2hrs, while the transit length is 3hrs (with a transfer in a major city). Doing the same in the Northeast, one of the best areas for transit in the US, resulted in two towns 120miles/2hrs drive distance, and 18hr/6 transfers transit distance. So yes, a car is more convenient in both cases, but transit is a competent alternative (which is what I said). France and Italy had comparable results to Germany, Spain did not. Germany, France, and Italy makes up roughly half of the EU population (add in Belgium or the Netherlands if you wanna be precise, they've got decent transit too). > US has 800 cars per 1000 people, but Italy and Spain have 650/1000 and even Poland, which is significantly poorer than US, has over 700 cars per 1000 You appear to have taken this article [1], and picked out the top three EU countries. > In Europe, car ownership is only slightly less of a necessity than it is in the US, and I think if you look at the data that measure cars not per capita, but per household, the gap in car ownership between US and European countries would be even smaller. "Owning a car" is not the same metric as "Needing to own a car to do literally anything because there are no alternatives". Germany, France, and Italy all rank higher than the US in annual passenger-km's of rail travel, despite each having populations 1/5th to 1/4th the size of the US[2]. Or look up modal share by country for other info - there's no handy Wikipedia summary, unfortunately, but for example, Germany is about 30% transit commutes. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_vehicles_per_capita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_vehicles_... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_rail_usage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_rail_usag...
    - f6v 5y ago
      I lived in a rural area in Germany. My experience was that grocery shopping and just getting around using public transport is much less convenient than in a big city. I almost felt handicapped without a car, and the majority of people around me drived one. Having children completely tips the scale. And yes, there’s biking, but doing that while it’s raining is a complete different story.

rorykoehler 5y ago

Only because we haven't priced in the externalized costs of ICE (anywhere in the world).