6 ms·

I get the hate that Electron gets for it's weight and overhead, but this is a perfect example of why Electron has value. This app has no dependency on native O

by ajford 5y ago

I get the hate that Electron gets for it's weight and overhead, but this is a perfect example of why Electron has value. This app has no dependency on native OS for anything beyond writing data. It doesn't need to compile heavy code bases, it doesn't need fast GPU or other access. It could have very well been an electron app, and it would have the benefit of being widely available on many platforms. I'd love to be able to use this app, but as a Linux and Windows user, I'm unable to. So I'll be searching for an alternative that runs on the platforms I have access to. That said, no hate on the author for building the tool to their needs and desires. It's a fantastic looking app, and looks well executed. Wish I could use it.

echelon 5y ago
And think about how much more work it was. And how much more work it'll take to maintain and update. It's an interesting choice to do native. That said, very impressive work.
- jamil7 5y ago
  > And think about how much more work it was. And how much more work it'll take to maintain and update. This isn't really true when supporting a single platform, assuming the author is fluent in AppKit etc.
  - kitsunesoba 5y ago
    AppKit apps also don’t usually break that easily. It’s surprisingly simple to get an abandoned OS X 10.0-10.4 era Cocoa app compiling and running on modern macOS, I’ve done it a couple times just for kicks.
nih0 5y ago
I like seeing devs embrace native frameworks. Electron apps just do UI so differently that its just a pain to use. For example dragging a file tab out of vs code doesnt create a new window like every other editor.
- wayneftw 5y ago
  Just because it's not implemented yet doesn't mean it can't be implemented. Electron can do anything a native app can because it is a native app itself. Anyway, you can do it without dragging which is actually even better. Just do Ctrl+K, O or on a Mac Cmd+K, O. You can track when this feature is implemented here - https://github.com/microsoft/vscode/issues/8171 https://github.com/microsoft/vscode/issues/8171
  - egypturnash 5y ago
    "you can do this thing in a completely different way than the native OS trains you to expect to do it, actually this is even better!"
    - wayneftw 5y ago
      Pfffft. Yeah, imagine using the mouse more than the keyboard for a coding tool though?
      - egypturnash 5y ago
        it's an art program ffs
        wayneftw 5y ago
        No, VS Code is a coding tool.
JaggerJo 5y ago
It would not be possible to do this in electron. To have the same great native feeling UI you’d need to use AppKit - not HTML. Don’t get me started at the usual shortcuts and general platform behavior most electron apps get wrong.
- Zababa 5y ago
  The insistance on native feeling UI and shortcuts is something I only see from Mac users. I think the app would work perfectly well in Electron but would just attract the usual complaints from Mac users.
  - haswell 5y ago
    One potential conclusion: Mac users understand the productivity increase and the value of apps feeling native, since the Apple ecosystem is one of the primary places to get such a native experience today. This shouldn't necessarily be interpreted as "Mac users are special flowers", but rather, "Mac users may have stronger opinions about this because they've experienced the benefits of native apps". I've been around the block with operating systems, and was primarily a Linux user for many years. Later in my career, I started to appreciate the simplicity and consistency of the Apple ecosystem, and while I recognize that's not everyone's thing, it lets me focus on the job at hand and spend less time learning how to use new apps/tools. This is valuable.
    - ajford 5y ago
      Another take on it is that Mac decided to go a different path on a few different UI things in the past, and that has persisted to this day. Look at how *nix, Windows, Sun, BSD, Chrome OS (which is basically a linux anyways) all use Ctrl, Meta (alt), and Shift for their hotkeys, compared to how Mac uses Hyper (cmd). Also look at how Mac has one instance of an app's tool bar/menu that all windows share. I'll agree that the consistent UI is a boon, but there's a large lack of discoverability imo, and some things that are just entirely lacking, like the ability to move windows around with hotkeys.
gorkish 5y ago
Given the rapid development and maturity of virtualization, container, sandboxing, and emulation technology: to me it seems rather silly that it's not yet trivial to run macos and windows apps (and anything else one would want) transparently, side by side on the same machine. I'm not normally a microsoft fan, but their direction with WSL2/WSLg/WSA feels very interesting...
jacobr1 5y ago
This is why Qt or Flutter are interesting.
calvin_ 5y ago
I think you underestimate a lot of the APIs for a platform and how they influence an app; Cocoa provides a lot for an application; for example, it can provide a lot of the structure for a document related app in terms of i.e undo/redo, window management, etc.
bromuro 5y ago
Get a Mac :) I would have not bought this app if it was not native. I love using it because the look and feel. I value this kind of beauty, call me a weirdo…
- ajford 5y ago
  Lol. Had one for almost 3 years. Not interested in going back. I personally prefer my Linux laptop and home lab, with my Windows desktop for all things gaming and 3d CAD related. I appreciate the vertical integration Apple has in all its products, but after feeling like I was fighting the system for almost 3 years, I was happy to no longer have to use it for my work machine. To each there own though! I'm glad you enjoy it, and I'm glad to see Monodraw get the attention it deserves (it's genuinely a very cool app).
nineteen999 5y ago
> It could have very well been an electron app, and it would have the benefit of being widely available on many platforms. There's nothing so intensive about it that it needs to be an Electron app either. It could just have easily been a cross-platform native app as well.

by ajford 5y ago

echelon 5y ago

And think about how much more work it was. And how much more work it'll take to maintain and update. It's an interesting choice to do native. That said, very impressive work.

jamil7 5y ago
> And think about how much more work it was. And how much more work it'll take to maintain and update. This isn't really true when supporting a single platform, assuming the author is fluent in AppKit etc.
- kitsunesoba 5y ago
  AppKit apps also don’t usually break that easily. It’s surprisingly simple to get an abandoned OS X 10.0-10.4 era Cocoa app compiling and running on modern macOS, I’ve done it a couple times just for kicks.

nih0 5y ago

I like seeing devs embrace native frameworks. Electron apps just do UI so differently that its just a pain to use. For example dragging a file tab out of vs code doesnt create a new window like every other editor.

wayneftw 5y ago
Just because it's not implemented yet doesn't mean it can't be implemented. Electron can do anything a native app can because it is a native app itself. Anyway, you can do it without dragging which is actually even better. Just do Ctrl+K, O or on a Mac Cmd+K, O. You can track when this feature is implemented here - https://github.com/microsoft/vscode/issues/8171 https://github.com/microsoft/vscode/issues/8171
- egypturnash 5y ago
  "you can do this thing in a completely different way than the native OS trains you to expect to do it, actually this is even better!"
  - wayneftw 5y ago
    Pfffft. Yeah, imagine using the mouse more than the keyboard for a coding tool though?
    - egypturnash 5y ago
      it's an art program ffs
      - wayneftw 5y ago
        No, VS Code is a coding tool.

JaggerJo 5y ago

It would not be possible to do this in electron. To have the same great native feeling UI you’d need to use AppKit - not HTML. Don’t get me started at the usual shortcuts and general platform behavior most electron apps get wrong.

Zababa 5y ago
The insistance on native feeling UI and shortcuts is something I only see from Mac users. I think the app would work perfectly well in Electron but would just attract the usual complaints from Mac users.
- haswell 5y ago
  One potential conclusion: Mac users understand the productivity increase and the value of apps feeling native, since the Apple ecosystem is one of the primary places to get such a native experience today. This shouldn't necessarily be interpreted as "Mac users are special flowers", but rather, "Mac users may have stronger opinions about this because they've experienced the benefits of native apps". I've been around the block with operating systems, and was primarily a Linux user for many years. Later in my career, I started to appreciate the simplicity and consistency of the Apple ecosystem, and while I recognize that's not everyone's thing, it lets me focus on the job at hand and spend less time learning how to use new apps/tools. This is valuable.
  - ajford 5y ago
    Another take on it is that Mac decided to go a different path on a few different UI things in the past, and that has persisted to this day. Look at how *nix, Windows, Sun, BSD, Chrome OS (which is basically a linux anyways) all use Ctrl, Meta (alt), and Shift for their hotkeys, compared to how Mac uses Hyper (cmd). Also look at how Mac has one instance of an app's tool bar/menu that all windows share. I'll agree that the consistent UI is a boon, but there's a large lack of discoverability imo, and some things that are just entirely lacking, like the ability to move windows around with hotkeys.

gorkish 5y ago

Given the rapid development and maturity of virtualization, container, sandboxing, and emulation technology: to me it seems rather silly that it's not yet trivial to run macos and windows apps (and anything else one would want) transparently, side by side on the same machine. I'm not normally a microsoft fan, but their direction with WSL2/WSLg/WSA feels very interesting...

jacobr1 5y ago

This is why Qt or Flutter are interesting.

calvin_ 5y ago

I think you underestimate a lot of the APIs for a platform and how they influence an app; Cocoa provides a lot for an application; for example, it can provide a lot of the structure for a document related app in terms of i.e undo/redo, window management, etc.

bromuro 5y ago

Get a Mac :) I would have not bought this app if it was not native. I love using it because the look and feel. I value this kind of beauty, call me a weirdo…

ajford 5y ago
Lol. Had one for almost 3 years. Not interested in going back. I personally prefer my Linux laptop and home lab, with my Windows desktop for all things gaming and 3d CAD related. I appreciate the vertical integration Apple has in all its products, but after feeling like I was fighting the system for almost 3 years, I was happy to no longer have to use it for my work machine. To each there own though! I'm glad you enjoy it, and I'm glad to see Monodraw get the attention it deserves (it's genuinely a very cool app).

nineteen999 5y ago

> It could have very well been an electron app, and it would have the benefit of being widely available on many platforms. There's nothing so intensive about it that it needs to be an Electron app either. It could just have easily been a cross-platform native app as well.