6 ms·

GM reveals more technical details of its Ultium battery packs

60 points by Element_ 5y ago

rasz 5y ago
but will you be allowed to charge overnight or park inside? https://electrek.co/2021/07/14/gm-chevy-bolt-ev-owners-not-charge-overnight-park-inside-garages-fires/ https://electrek.co/2021/07/14/gm-chevy-bolt-ev-owners-not-c... and this is after forced recall and two supposed "software fixes"
mavhc 5y ago
Enough batteries to make 10% of GM cars electric? They're doing GWh vs their competition aiming at TWh
- MR4D 5y ago
  It’s only two plants, and the article only discusses the US. GM is probably going to build more plants to be collocates near their auto assembly sites.
- loufe 5y ago
  It's got to start somewhere. Especially considering they're using what seems to be a somewhat novel packaging for their batteries, best to ease into it.
- wil421 5y ago
  I think GM sells a more cars in some years than Tesla’s total US sales of all time. They sold 2.8 million US cars in 2019 so 10% would be similar to every Model S ever sold in the US.[1] [1] https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/tesla-model-s-sales-figures-usa-canada/ https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/tesla-model-s-sales-figures-us...
  - maxdo 5y ago
    With current pace, and considering two major plants opening( Texas,Berlin), and one new line(Shanghai) , tesla will be at 800k cars this year, 1.1-1.5m next year. So by 2023 tesla could approach GM size of 2019. Considering this two companies compete on the same market, and tesla plans to enter affordable segment in 2023 with model 2... it's a big question where GM will be in 2023-2024
    - wil421 5y ago
      If I look at GMs global sales for 2019 it would be 7.72 million which is almost 800k. It will be interesting to see if the big global car companies will be able to beat Tesla on things like quality manufacturing, serviceability, and cost. Tesla is not appealing to me due to the premium cost combined with a cheap interior, non-serviceability ($1600 for eeprom from excessive logging!) and over reliance on software. Not to mention the $10k self driving vapor ware Elon pushes. Excited to see what GM, Ford, MB and BMW will offer in the coming years.
      - jsight 5y ago
        I think the non-servicability aspect is made out to be more critical than it is for MOST purposes. There were third party fixes for the storage issue, for example. And in general Tesla has one of the better online parts catalogs, and you can order replacement parts directly. The issue is more to do with a lack of service facilities that are ready and willing to deal with these new cars. Volume will change that more than any particular policy change. EDIT: To be clear, I'm not saying there are zero issues. Tesla will not sell high voltage components. There are situations where this can be problematic.
        wil421 5y ago
        Ouch! I was going to do some comparisons with Telsa's online catalog vs other's I have used (Mopar for Jeeps) but I have to create a login. Mopar is definitely one of the better ones I have used. At least they are not like BMW who lack anything. realoem.com has always helped me out.
      - maxdo 5y ago
        Service is a very subjective topic :) I'm a model Y owner. I broke the charging port sensor with high-pressure washing. I opened an App, click service, the error was in the App already; I pressed on that error, App created a request. Service came at my home and fixed it. I paid 0 dollars for it. I spent 2 mites creating request and 5 minutes to open and close the gate to service person. Will Ford come to my home? Good luck spending hours on the phone with a dealer that has no clue about electric cars at all. People pay the same price for Mach-E as I paid for my model Y except temporary federal credits. Cheap interior? I have the best infotainment system compares to any other brand, even if that car cost $100k+. I've got games, best-in class audio, video streaming and I'm using it a lot. I have not fragmented glass roof; every person sitting in my car is amazed by it. Even owners of far more expensive Mercedes etc.. The seat is one of the best I ever seat it; they don't outsource it as other brands and tesla invest a lot of time in ergonomics. The rest is just taste. I like minimalism. And it matches my preferences. And yeah, I call vapor ware when Nissan bundles satellite radio and tons of nonsense to have access to the app. Or navigation system in the past for few thousands dollars from any brand. Or when dealers charging several hundred dollars premium for the lost keys when I use my phone in tesla. Seriously you compare the ugly dealership experience of traditional brands to an optional offer of autopilot that will be soon available as a subscription? Or electic car that don't invest in charging network, unlike tesla, that has charging points in every stupid tourist destination I can imagine? I had false feedback from many people about car price also. If you look at the prices and compare head to head... Ford... compare cybertuck and F-150, like range, battery, motors, etc... especially premium $90k Ford with $75k CT, and you'll not be so confident. Or compare $32k Nissan leaf with overheating batteries compares to $37k-$39k Model 3... they not even in the same league. Nissan leaf was on the market for 10 years, but Tesla sold more model 3 as total Nissan leaf sales combined. And there is a reason for that, it's not only branding. You got service, electric charging network etc... Ford Mach-E is dollar to dollar matches Model Y. Current BMW offering among electric car is not even worth discussion. It's just junk. They announces something next year though. Don't get me wrong, they will sell a lot of cars, as entire industry will turn in electric as fast as they can produce cheap batteries. I hear a lot tesla is expensive, but there is nothing with comparable range and features on a market that is substantially cheaper. A year ago the statement was there is almost nothing on the market at all. Luckily now it's changing. Nobody offers you to buy $10k Autopilot, you can subscribe soon to it, for a fraction of that price if you WANT.
  - mavhc 5y ago
    True, but Tesla have sold over 1.7 million cars total, with yearly sales rising by about 50% per year
    - gamblor956 5y ago
      It's much easier for a tiny competitor to scale by double digits, especially when said competitor only sells cars in a few countries. For GM to increase car sales by double digits would likely require the sudden disappearance of one of its major competitors like Toyota creating a huge void in the global market. For example: the Toyota Mirai, a very niche hydrogen car, saw 1000% YoY sales gains. The Chevy Bolt EV saw a 335% YoY increase in sales. Also, note that GM sold 50% more cars in the U.S. this past quarter alone as Tesla sold all of last year worldwide. Toyota edged GM by fewer than a 1000 cars in the U.S. Each of them has sold almost as many cars this year as Tesla has ever sold.
      - maxdo 5y ago
        Yep, but the only difference is that tesla in those few markets start outselling other brands in certain categories and their annual volumes will count in millions next year. You can easy compare them to BMW or Audi. next year they will be companies with comparable volume. Somehow I don't see BMW or Audi growing that fast.
        gamblor956 5y ago
        Tesla's annual car sales is anticipated to exceed 1 million (but not 2 million), so technically yes, they would be in the "millions." I also don't see BMW or Audi growing very fast; they're luxury brands and scale would actually harm their image. However, I do see GM, Ford, and VW scaling very quickly once they launch new EV models. Ford's F150 Lightning will handily outsell the Cybertruck once it's available. (And the F-series itself is the best-selling vehicle of all time in the U.S. [Edit: and second-best all-time worldwide, after the Corolla series].)
        mavhc 5y ago
pkulak 5y ago
> The Hummer’s pack will allow the top and bottom layers to be temporarily switched from a parallel to a series connection Bloody brilliant. I always wondered how much copper you need to step 120v all the way up to 800v for a car like the Taycan. Also, 200kwh? Where's my It's Happening gif?
- AYBABTME 5y ago
  It doesn't go from 120 to 800V, it gets reduced from a higher voltage to 800.
  - jsight 5y ago
    I'm not sure what you mean. If you plug a Taycan into a 120V outlet, the onboard charger has to get from 120V to 800V. If you DCFC, it depends on the charger. I think EA will typically do 800V, but some have to go through an onboard DC->DC converter to get from 400V to 800V? I'm fuzzy on that last bit, though.
    - AYBABTME 5y ago
      Right for the slow chargers, I hadn't thought this was what the GP meant. In any case the DCFC definitely don't step up 350KW of power from 120 to 800V, as that would defeat the whole purpose of using a higher voltage.
      - jsight 5y ago
        Oh... now I understand what you were getting at. That's definitely true. :)
nolta 5y ago
Original article: https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a36877532/general-motors-ev-ultium-battery-electric-future/ https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a36877532/general-moto...
jsight 5y ago
I'm not sure that there were actually new details here? The ability to join the two packs in series for a higher voltage was well known for a while now. It will be interesting to see how they manage the claim of safe charging to 100%. Most other companies are doing that by adding a large buffer. It wouldn't surprise me if that is the case with GM as well.
Animats 5y ago
This is supposedly a safer battery chemistry than lithium-ion, with better behavior in fires and punctures. Although it would be good to hear from NFPA and UL on this. It's also apparently better behaved about being fully charged and discharged than lithium-ion. These are both good characteristics to have as electric vehicles start to dominate the market. Drone video of one GM battery factory under construction.[1] That's the one in Lordstown, OH. Building exterior is finished. Power substation finished. A/C cooling towers under construction. Next one is in Spring Hill, TN. GM doesn't make as much noise as Tesla about building large battery factories. They just build them. [1] https://youtu.be/vbgzuy6usaE https://youtu.be/vbgzuy6usaE
- rasz 5y ago
  LG Chem battery factory. "LG Energy Solutions, the company that makes the battery for the Bolt and Kona EV, has not had a good year. First, they agreed to replace the 82,000 batteries sold to Hyundai for the Kona EV, Ioniq, and Elec City buses. Although the initial rumors were from a faulty battery separator, Hyundai later said that the problem was badly folded tabs. GM emphatically pointed out that they use a different separator, and a different factory. Thus neither of those problems should apply to the Bolt fires. Porsche recently initiated a recall on a loss of power in its Taycan LG batteries, and Ford also moved from LG in its Mustang Mach-E to SK in its Ford F-150 Lightning."
- pedrocr 5y ago
  According to the article these are lithium-ion. Everyone is tweaking the chemistries within that space. LFP already has most of those advantages but lower density. We're in for some fast paced improvement over the next 10 years.
fy20 5y ago
> Tim Grewe, GM’s Global Electrification and Battery Systems Director, told Car and Driver that the Ultium pack does not suffer capacity loss from excessive DC fast charging, so GM will not advise users to charge the pack to less than 100 percent. I'm guessing this means just means "100%" charge is not actually 100% of the battery. Most other EVs do this by a few % (even Tesla), but they also don't recommend charging to 100%. I guess GM will limit it even further.
sbierwagen 5y ago
>Tim Grewe, GM’s Global Electrification and Battery Systems Director, told Car and Driver that the Ultium pack does not suffer capacity loss from excessive DC fast charging, so GM will not advise users to charge the pack to less than 100 percent. Translation: we can get higher spec cells now, so battery capacity will be over-rated. A "100 KWh" pack will be 120 KW+. When it says it's fully charged it's actually sitting at a nice conservative 80% SoC. You could fast charge it every day because the pack is so huge that 100 KW is a nice gentle 1C charge rate. You can push the warranty out further because you have more headroom for battery aging. Presumably when the car hits three or four years old it'll set a charge threshold at 80% and start warning you about fast charging. (Or maybe not? It would be in GM's interest to let you run it into the ground like a cellphone)
- psudox 5y ago
  They’ll probably give owners a setting that controls this. Maybe it appears after x years or kilometres? Interesting new EV UX issue for them if they do upsize the battery packs. This is similar to Apple’s degraded battery CPU throttling where they would throttle and not give you any choice or awareness of it. Now, when your battery ages, you can choose to run it into the ground with max performance.
  - Abishek_Muthian 5y ago
    >Now, when your battery ages, you can choose to run it into the ground with max performance. Haven't used an iPhone in a while, But I thought the charge cutoff happens automatically at 80% if you plug in overnight and continues charging before you wakeup? Is there an user control over this now? Anyways for android users who wish to have control over battery charging on you can use 'AccA'[1] to charge from 40-80%, including temperature related CHANGES. This way you can charge your phone overnight on a low voltage USB (Slow charge) and prolong the life of that battery even further. [1] https://github.com/MatteCarra/AccA https://github.com/MatteCarra/AccA
CyanLite2 5y ago
Wanted: an EV with the looks of the Mach-E, performance of the Kia EV6-GT, the software of Tesla, the battery of GM, safety of the LIDAR-equipped Volvo XC90, and the warranty of a Hyundai. All for less than $45,000 with a $7500 federal tax credit.

60 points by Element_ 5y ago

rasz 5y ago

but will you be allowed to charge overnight or park inside? https://electrek.co/2021/07/14/gm-chevy-bolt-ev-owners-not-charge-overnight-park-inside-garages-fires/ https://electrek.co/2021/07/14/gm-chevy-bolt-ev-owners-not-c... and this is after forced recall and two supposed "software fixes"

mavhc 5y ago

Enough batteries to make 10% of GM cars electric? They're doing GWh vs their competition aiming at TWh

MR4D 5y ago
It’s only two plants, and the article only discusses the US. GM is probably going to build more plants to be collocates near their auto assembly sites.
loufe 5y ago
It's got to start somewhere. Especially considering they're using what seems to be a somewhat novel packaging for their batteries, best to ease into it.
wil421 5y ago
I think GM sells a more cars in some years than Tesla’s total US sales of all time. They sold 2.8 million US cars in 2019 so 10% would be similar to every Model S ever sold in the US.[1] [1] https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/tesla-model-s-sales-figures-usa-canada/ https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/tesla-model-s-sales-figures-us...
- maxdo 5y ago
  With current pace, and considering two major plants opening( Texas,Berlin), and one new line(Shanghai) , tesla will be at 800k cars this year, 1.1-1.5m next year. So by 2023 tesla could approach GM size of 2019. Considering this two companies compete on the same market, and tesla plans to enter affordable segment in 2023 with model 2... it's a big question where GM will be in 2023-2024
  - wil421 5y ago
    If I look at GMs global sales for 2019 it would be 7.72 million which is almost 800k. It will be interesting to see if the big global car companies will be able to beat Tesla on things like quality manufacturing, serviceability, and cost. Tesla is not appealing to me due to the premium cost combined with a cheap interior, non-serviceability ($1600 for eeprom from excessive logging!) and over reliance on software. Not to mention the $10k self driving vapor ware Elon pushes. Excited to see what GM, Ford, MB and BMW will offer in the coming years.
    - jsight 5y ago
      I think the non-servicability aspect is made out to be more critical than it is for MOST purposes. There were third party fixes for the storage issue, for example. And in general Tesla has one of the better online parts catalogs, and you can order replacement parts directly. The issue is more to do with a lack of service facilities that are ready and willing to deal with these new cars. Volume will change that more than any particular policy change. EDIT: To be clear, I'm not saying there are zero issues. Tesla will not sell high voltage components. There are situations where this can be problematic.
      - wil421 5y ago
        Ouch! I was going to do some comparisons with Telsa's online catalog vs other's I have used (Mopar for Jeeps) but I have to create a login. Mopar is definitely one of the better ones I have used. At least they are not like BMW who lack anything. realoem.com has always helped me out.
    - maxdo 5y ago
      Service is a very subjective topic :) I'm a model Y owner. I broke the charging port sensor with high-pressure washing. I opened an App, click service, the error was in the App already; I pressed on that error, App created a request. Service came at my home and fixed it. I paid 0 dollars for it. I spent 2 mites creating request and 5 minutes to open and close the gate to service person. Will Ford come to my home? Good luck spending hours on the phone with a dealer that has no clue about electric cars at all. People pay the same price for Mach-E as I paid for my model Y except temporary federal credits. Cheap interior? I have the best infotainment system compares to any other brand, even if that car cost $100k+. I've got games, best-in class audio, video streaming and I'm using it a lot. I have not fragmented glass roof; every person sitting in my car is amazed by it. Even owners of far more expensive Mercedes etc.. The seat is one of the best I ever seat it; they don't outsource it as other brands and tesla invest a lot of time in ergonomics. The rest is just taste. I like minimalism. And it matches my preferences. And yeah, I call vapor ware when Nissan bundles satellite radio and tons of nonsense to have access to the app. Or navigation system in the past for few thousands dollars from any brand. Or when dealers charging several hundred dollars premium for the lost keys when I use my phone in tesla. Seriously you compare the ugly dealership experience of traditional brands to an optional offer of autopilot that will be soon available as a subscription? Or electic car that don't invest in charging network, unlike tesla, that has charging points in every stupid tourist destination I can imagine? I had false feedback from many people about car price also. If you look at the prices and compare head to head... Ford... compare cybertuck and F-150, like range, battery, motors, etc... especially premium $90k Ford with $75k CT, and you'll not be so confident. Or compare $32k Nissan leaf with overheating batteries compares to $37k-$39k Model 3... they not even in the same league. Nissan leaf was on the market for 10 years, but Tesla sold more model 3 as total Nissan leaf sales combined. And there is a reason for that, it's not only branding. You got service, electric charging network etc... Ford Mach-E is dollar to dollar matches Model Y. Current BMW offering among electric car is not even worth discussion. It's just junk. They announces something next year though. Don't get me wrong, they will sell a lot of cars, as entire industry will turn in electric as fast as they can produce cheap batteries. I hear a lot tesla is expensive, but there is nothing with comparable range and features on a market that is substantially cheaper. A year ago the statement was there is almost nothing on the market at all. Luckily now it's changing. Nobody offers you to buy $10k Autopilot, you can subscribe soon to it, for a fraction of that price if you WANT.
- mavhc 5y ago
  True, but Tesla have sold over 1.7 million cars total, with yearly sales rising by about 50% per year
  - gamblor956 5y ago
    It's much easier for a tiny competitor to scale by double digits, especially when said competitor only sells cars in a few countries. For GM to increase car sales by double digits would likely require the sudden disappearance of one of its major competitors like Toyota creating a huge void in the global market. For example: the Toyota Mirai, a very niche hydrogen car, saw 1000% YoY sales gains. The Chevy Bolt EV saw a 335% YoY increase in sales. Also, note that GM sold 50% more cars in the U.S. this past quarter alone as Tesla sold all of last year worldwide. Toyota edged GM by fewer than a 1000 cars in the U.S. Each of them has sold almost as many cars this year as Tesla has ever sold.
    - maxdo 5y ago
      Yep, but the only difference is that tesla in those few markets start outselling other brands in certain categories and their annual volumes will count in millions next year. You can easy compare them to BMW or Audi. next year they will be companies with comparable volume. Somehow I don't see BMW or Audi growing that fast.
      - gamblor956 5y ago
        Tesla's annual car sales is anticipated to exceed 1 million (but not 2 million), so technically yes, they would be in the "millions." I also don't see BMW or Audi growing very fast; they're luxury brands and scale would actually harm their image. However, I do see GM, Ford, and VW scaling very quickly once they launch new EV models. Ford's F150 Lightning will handily outsell the Cybertruck once it's available. (And the F-series itself is the best-selling vehicle of all time in the U.S. [Edit: and second-best all-time worldwide, after the Corolla series].)
        mavhc 5y ago

pkulak 5y ago

> The Hummer’s pack will allow the top and bottom layers to be temporarily switched from a parallel to a series connection Bloody brilliant. I always wondered how much copper you need to step 120v all the way up to 800v for a car like the Taycan. Also, 200kwh? Where's my It's Happening gif?

AYBABTME 5y ago
It doesn't go from 120 to 800V, it gets reduced from a higher voltage to 800.
- jsight 5y ago
  I'm not sure what you mean. If you plug a Taycan into a 120V outlet, the onboard charger has to get from 120V to 800V. If you DCFC, it depends on the charger. I think EA will typically do 800V, but some have to go through an onboard DC->DC converter to get from 400V to 800V? I'm fuzzy on that last bit, though.
  - AYBABTME 5y ago
    Right for the slow chargers, I hadn't thought this was what the GP meant. In any case the DCFC definitely don't step up 350KW of power from 120 to 800V, as that would defeat the whole purpose of using a higher voltage.
    - jsight 5y ago
      Oh... now I understand what you were getting at. That's definitely true. :)

nolta 5y ago

Original article: https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a36877532/general-motors-ev-ultium-battery-electric-future/ https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a36877532/general-moto...

jsight 5y ago

I'm not sure that there were actually new details here? The ability to join the two packs in series for a higher voltage was well known for a while now. It will be interesting to see how they manage the claim of safe charging to 100%. Most other companies are doing that by adding a large buffer. It wouldn't surprise me if that is the case with GM as well.

Animats 5y ago

This is supposedly a safer battery chemistry than lithium-ion, with better behavior in fires and punctures. Although it would be good to hear from NFPA and UL on this. It's also apparently better behaved about being fully charged and discharged than lithium-ion. These are both good characteristics to have as electric vehicles start to dominate the market. Drone video of one GM battery factory under construction.[1] That's the one in Lordstown, OH. Building exterior is finished. Power substation finished. A/C cooling towers under construction. Next one is in Spring Hill, TN. GM doesn't make as much noise as Tesla about building large battery factories. They just build them. [1] https://youtu.be/vbgzuy6usaE https://youtu.be/vbgzuy6usaE

rasz 5y ago
LG Chem battery factory. "LG Energy Solutions, the company that makes the battery for the Bolt and Kona EV, has not had a good year. First, they agreed to replace the 82,000 batteries sold to Hyundai for the Kona EV, Ioniq, and Elec City buses. Although the initial rumors were from a faulty battery separator, Hyundai later said that the problem was badly folded tabs. GM emphatically pointed out that they use a different separator, and a different factory. Thus neither of those problems should apply to the Bolt fires. Porsche recently initiated a recall on a loss of power in its Taycan LG batteries, and Ford also moved from LG in its Mustang Mach-E to SK in its Ford F-150 Lightning."
pedrocr 5y ago
According to the article these are lithium-ion. Everyone is tweaking the chemistries within that space. LFP already has most of those advantages but lower density. We're in for some fast paced improvement over the next 10 years.

fy20 5y ago

> Tim Grewe, GM’s Global Electrification and Battery Systems Director, told Car and Driver that the Ultium pack does not suffer capacity loss from excessive DC fast charging, so GM will not advise users to charge the pack to less than 100 percent. I'm guessing this means just means "100%" charge is not actually 100% of the battery. Most other EVs do this by a few % (even Tesla), but they also don't recommend charging to 100%. I guess GM will limit it even further.

sbierwagen 5y ago

>Tim Grewe, GM’s Global Electrification and Battery Systems Director, told Car and Driver that the Ultium pack does not suffer capacity loss from excessive DC fast charging, so GM will not advise users to charge the pack to less than 100 percent. Translation: we can get higher spec cells now, so battery capacity will be over-rated. A "100 KWh" pack will be 120 KW+. When it says it's fully charged it's actually sitting at a nice conservative 80% SoC. You could fast charge it every day because the pack is so huge that 100 KW is a nice gentle 1C charge rate. You can push the warranty out further because you have more headroom for battery aging. Presumably when the car hits three or four years old it'll set a charge threshold at 80% and start warning you about fast charging. (Or maybe not? It would be in GM's interest to let you run it into the ground like a cellphone)

psudox 5y ago
They’ll probably give owners a setting that controls this. Maybe it appears after x years or kilometres? Interesting new EV UX issue for them if they do upsize the battery packs. This is similar to Apple’s degraded battery CPU throttling where they would throttle and not give you any choice or awareness of it. Now, when your battery ages, you can choose to run it into the ground with max performance.
- Abishek_Muthian 5y ago
  >Now, when your battery ages, you can choose to run it into the ground with max performance. Haven't used an iPhone in a while, But I thought the charge cutoff happens automatically at 80% if you plug in overnight and continues charging before you wakeup? Is there an user control over this now? Anyways for android users who wish to have control over battery charging on you can use 'AccA'[1] to charge from 40-80%, including temperature related CHANGES. This way you can charge your phone overnight on a low voltage USB (Slow charge) and prolong the life of that battery even further. [1] https://github.com/MatteCarra/AccA https://github.com/MatteCarra/AccA

CyanLite2 5y ago

Wanted: an EV with the looks of the Mach-E, performance of the Kia EV6-GT, the software of Tesla, the battery of GM, safety of the LIDAR-equipped Volvo XC90, and the warranty of a Hyundai. All for less than $45,000 with a $7500 federal tax credit.