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> I fail to see how the public-permissionless paradigm will ever work But it is working! Bitcoin has hundreds of thousands of transactions per day on the main

> I fail to see how the public-permissionless paradigm will ever work But it is working! Bitcoin has hundreds of thousands of transactions per day on the main chain alone where it settles 2B+$ in value, eth has tons of really useful defi projects that people actually use (maker, compound, aave, uniswap, etc).

rsynnott 5y ago
Use for _what_, though? As far as I can see, largely speculation.
- rawtxapp 5y ago
  The same things that normal financial systems enable you, but without a central authority. It's trustless, permissionless, completely transparent, uncensorable, borderless open financial system. If you think that all of that is just pure speculation, I don't know what to say. Just go through github, whitepapers and technical discussions to see the serious side of the industry, rather than being stuck to the surface level of fraudsters/speculators promising 100x money returns on social media.
  - lottin 5y ago
    DeFi is crippled by design. It can't really do anything useful, because it doesn't support property rights. Any serious discussion about DeFi should start by acknowledging this basic fact.
  - plywoodtrees 5y ago
    "uncensorable" is a euphemism for "enables fraud, black markets, money laundering, and extortion". Although there are some cases under oppressive regimes where black markets may be a moral good, on the whole enabling financial crimes is, in my value system, bad. Furthermore I think regulatory systems will eventually move against this - in fact you see it starting. See https://doomberg.substack.com/p/a-stablecoin-applies-to-become-a https://doomberg.substack.com/p/a-stablecoin-applies-to-beco...
    - miracle2k 5y ago
      Child pornographers everyday use encrypted messaging and Tor to get away with their crimes. Meanwhile, normal users have no practical benefit from either. Why is this different?
      - plywoodtrees 5y ago
        That's a really question that I have considered before, and that deserves a long answer. One part of it is: As both a matter of norms and law, we expect and desire more public scrutiny of financial transactions than of speech. In particular, various taxes mean that a large fraction of financial transactions cannot and should not be private. Conversely the great majority of 1 on 1 conversations raise no legal or regulatory issues.
- lambdaba 5y ago
  Not true. I've used bitcoin for purchases before (not illegal drugs). From sellers who were dropped from payment processors for CYA-type reasons. Yes, a big part is speculation but how could it not be? Any bet on the future is speculation. Apologies if your argument is actually more subtle, in which case I'd like to hear it.
  - endisneigh 5y ago
    > Any bet on the future is speculation This is not true. Speculation is specifically referring to the situation where you are betting specifically because you think the bet you made will result in positive financial return.
  - simonw 5y ago
    Have you bought anything with Bitcoin in the past couple of years despite the high transaction fees? What did you buy?
verdverm 5y ago
It's easy to make such a claim when you ignore the second and more important part of my statement. Typical...

rsynnott 5y ago

Use for _what_, though? As far as I can see, largely speculation.

rawtxapp 5y ago
The same things that normal financial systems enable you, but without a central authority. It's trustless, permissionless, completely transparent, uncensorable, borderless open financial system. If you think that all of that is just pure speculation, I don't know what to say. Just go through github, whitepapers and technical discussions to see the serious side of the industry, rather than being stuck to the surface level of fraudsters/speculators promising 100x money returns on social media.
- lottin 5y ago
  DeFi is crippled by design. It can't really do anything useful, because it doesn't support property rights. Any serious discussion about DeFi should start by acknowledging this basic fact.
- plywoodtrees 5y ago
  "uncensorable" is a euphemism for "enables fraud, black markets, money laundering, and extortion". Although there are some cases under oppressive regimes where black markets may be a moral good, on the whole enabling financial crimes is, in my value system, bad. Furthermore I think regulatory systems will eventually move against this - in fact you see it starting. See https://doomberg.substack.com/p/a-stablecoin-applies-to-become-a https://doomberg.substack.com/p/a-stablecoin-applies-to-beco...
  - miracle2k 5y ago
    Child pornographers everyday use encrypted messaging and Tor to get away with their crimes. Meanwhile, normal users have no practical benefit from either. Why is this different?
    - plywoodtrees 5y ago
      That's a really question that I have considered before, and that deserves a long answer. One part of it is: As both a matter of norms and law, we expect and desire more public scrutiny of financial transactions than of speech. In particular, various taxes mean that a large fraction of financial transactions cannot and should not be private. Conversely the great majority of 1 on 1 conversations raise no legal or regulatory issues.
lambdaba 5y ago
Not true. I've used bitcoin for purchases before (not illegal drugs). From sellers who were dropped from payment processors for CYA-type reasons. Yes, a big part is speculation but how could it not be? Any bet on the future is speculation. Apologies if your argument is actually more subtle, in which case I'd like to hear it.
- endisneigh 5y ago
  > Any bet on the future is speculation This is not true. Speculation is specifically referring to the situation where you are betting specifically because you think the bet you made will result in positive financial return.
- simonw 5y ago
  Have you bought anything with Bitcoin in the past couple of years despite the high transaction fees? What did you buy?

verdverm 5y ago

It's easy to make such a claim when you ignore the second and more important part of my statement. Typical...