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It's heart-breaking to see many of my Chinese friends / peers keep their heads in the sand about this. Usually they'll fall silent the topic arises. At most,

It's heart-breaking to see many of my Chinese friends / peers keep their heads in the sand about this. Usually they'll fall silent the topic arises. At most, they'll say something about cultural differences and social cohesion and that as an American I just couldn't possibly understand. If I press them on it they'll mention the Japanese internment camps in WWII, and I'll agree with them that it was awful and that my country has done evil things that I am ashamed of. But I've never heard this shame reciprocated.

Miner49er 5y ago
I think most Americans would have gave a similar response during WWII as well. It's only with time that opinion has shifted to it being something that we are shameful of.
- benrbray 5y ago
  There are plenty of things happening in present day American policy that I am ashamed of. On the other hand, I'm grateful that I can openly criticize my government online without fear of imprisonment.
yunohn 5y ago
> I'll agree with them that it was awful and that my country has done evil things that I am ashamed of I think what a lot of the non-West feels is that the West has done horrible things, benefited from it, and continues to commit modern colonialism and direct/indirect exploitation of developing countries to continually benefit from them. The dissonance is in thinking that the West is no longer doing these things and only the Enemy (China/Russia/whoever) is. Thus, taking an (invalid) higher moral ground is what probably turns your friends away.
- benrbray 5y ago
  Plenty of Americans were very outspoken against the Vietnam and Iraq wars, among other blunders. Plenty of us find the state of American politics absolutely deplorable. There is no shortage of critics. Sure, there is plenty of room for improvement. I wish more people cared about social and economic issues, and I wish those who did care were more willing to act. But at least in America it's part of the conversation.
  - yunohn 5y ago
    > Sure, there is plenty of room for improvement I imagine that you probably care more than the average American. But saying there’s room for improvement, while the USA has the largest military presence in the world, and uses it to bully everyone else, is quite frightening for the non-West. > Vietnam and Iraq wars It’s exactly these (older) examples which I am talking about. The West continues to fuel atrocities in the Middle East on literally a daily basis: - Syria: “CIA sold arms to Syrian rebel groups” - https://www.georgetownjournalofinternationalaffairs.org/online-edition/2019/9/2/the-arms-trade-and-syria https://www.georgetownjournalofinternationalaffairs.org/onli... - Afghanistan: “UN says more civilians killed by allies than insurgents” - https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-49165676 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-49165676
    - chaostheory 5y ago
      He is not more outspoken than “other Americans”. It’s a common sentiment for our past mistakes. Why? Because we don’t hide from them and pretend they didn’t happen. Our mistakes are recorded in literature even school textbooks, TV shows, and movies for all to see. Why? So there’s a much higher chance that we don’t repeat our mistakes, and we can be proactive at fixing issues that arise from them. This is a key feature of a democracy, though there are exceptions like Japan. I think mainland Chinese people have a hard time separating the US government from the US population because of the forced conformity that the CCP demands of them, or they would realize that a large contingent of the US population on both political spectrums has wanted to pull back our military presence for a long time now. The US population and the US government are a lot less aligned than you think. For the record, I’m a Chinese American so I’m not ignorant of what’s going on in mainland China.
    - benrbray 5y ago
      For the record, I mentioned Vietnam and Iraq not in the context of the present day, but because a significant proportion of Americans were very outspoken about those wars as they were happening. You're right, it's harder to remain actively informed about the day-to-day military action that accumulates into something awful. Even when we know about it, our political system doesn't give enough opportunities to give fine-grained feedback about specific issues. Usually the national conversation is dominated by culture war issues, and I can't help but feel that it's an intentional distraction so the public will forget that we're plundering the middle east etc.. But at least I am free to voice my opinion, and to bother all my friends and family about geopolitics when given the opportunity.
- c1ccccc1 5y ago
  A utilitarian perspective is probably more productive than worrying about who has the moral high ground in any case. The fact is that the situation in Xinjiang is terrible and seems to be getting worse. The question is what can be done about it. For the Chinese government, the answer is simple: Close down the internment camps, and let the people go home. But the Chinese government isn't likely to read this comment, and even less likely to act on its advice. For other countries, the available actions will be more indirect. I think we should focus on getting as many Uyghurs out of the country as possible. This would require other countries to take them in as refugees or immigrants. It would also require some way of getting them physically out of China, which would be easier with the cooperation of the Chinese government. In theory, if China views the Uyghurs as a kind of nuisance, it should easily agree to let them leave for greener pastures, but in practice that doesn't seems to be the case. Perhaps the worry is that they will badmouth China once they leave. It's probably more complicated than that, but definitely worth pondering on with so many lives at stake.
  - chaostheory 5y ago
    What you’re suggesting isn’t feasible because it would mean that the CCP “loses face”. Not happening.
  - yunohn 5y ago
    > A utilitarian perspective is probably more productive than worrying about who has the moral high ground in any case. While I agree with this, the OP was commenting about how their friends turn away when the issue is brought up, and comparing how OP reacts to similar crimes about their own country. So, that’s a point I felt warranted to discuss. More generally, historically, colonization has always been about “taming the savages” and “teaching them (Western) morality”. Slavery and exploitation went hand in hand with this mindset.
dirtyid 5y ago
>But I've never heard this shame reciprocated. Maybe in 100 years with benefit of hindsight, even then for performative reconciliation, such are nature of these things. A Chinese person with connection to east&west understands five years of XJ securitization that affects less than 1% of population eliminated previously regular extremist terrorist attacks with heavy sticks like internment / reducation but also carrots like development and vocational training. It's the best of a terrible situation. Meanwhile, US+coalition just exited one ME forever war, with others ongoing, many indigenous communities in west don't have running water and US for profit industrial complex jails more blacks as proportion of their population than the wildest wested funded thinktank extrapolations for XJ internmen. All without meaningful reconciliation in sight, and to the relative indifference of the "global community" that's strangely engaged in how PRC mistreats a domestic muslim minority. The TL;DR: is Chinese with dual perspective of how US/west and PRC prosecuted their war on terror hold their opinions after considered evaluation, they're silent because it's un/counter-productive to discuss with their western friends whose heads are in sand due to western propaganda. Most are tired of such westerners, majority of whom only get exposed to narrative from one side keeps asserting they wish their Chinese peers knew better. What the last few years of US manufactured consent campaigns about XJ/HK etc. has taught most Chinese (a lesson previously learned by diasphora of many global south previously targetted by US) is that free fifth estate and disucssion creates more dangerous brainwashed individuals that are both self-righteous and oblivious to their ignorance. There's no point in engaging.
- c1ccccc1 5y ago
  You say that China's current policy towards the Uyghurs is the "best of a terrible situation". The word "best" implies a search through all possible alternatives. So walk me through the optimization process that recommends the current policy, if you will, because it seems to my naive intuition that there were plenty of better options. Terrorism is the killing of civilians as an act of war, i.e. it's a subcategory of murder, which is highly illegal. Why were the usual law enforcement and justice systems ineffective here, lack of resources? Building large numbers of concentration camps seems very expensive, why not devote those resources to beefing up law enforcement and security? Also, Tahir Izgil and his friends and family don't appear to be mass-murderers, so what's the anti-terror benefit in locking them (and so many other innocent people) up? For that matter, what's the anti-terror benefit in making it so hard for them to leave China? If Uyghurs are considered to be such a problematic minority, why not let them simply leave?

Miner49er 5y ago

I think most Americans would have gave a similar response during WWII as well. It's only with time that opinion has shifted to it being something that we are shameful of.

benrbray 5y ago
There are plenty of things happening in present day American policy that I am ashamed of. On the other hand, I'm grateful that I can openly criticize my government online without fear of imprisonment.

yunohn 5y ago

> I'll agree with them that it was awful and that my country has done evil things that I am ashamed of I think what a lot of the non-West feels is that the West has done horrible things, benefited from it, and continues to commit modern colonialism and direct/indirect exploitation of developing countries to continually benefit from them. The dissonance is in thinking that the West is no longer doing these things and only the Enemy (China/Russia/whoever) is. Thus, taking an (invalid) higher moral ground is what probably turns your friends away.

benrbray 5y ago
Plenty of Americans were very outspoken against the Vietnam and Iraq wars, among other blunders. Plenty of us find the state of American politics absolutely deplorable. There is no shortage of critics. Sure, there is plenty of room for improvement. I wish more people cared about social and economic issues, and I wish those who did care were more willing to act. But at least in America it's part of the conversation.
- yunohn 5y ago
  > Sure, there is plenty of room for improvement I imagine that you probably care more than the average American. But saying there’s room for improvement, while the USA has the largest military presence in the world, and uses it to bully everyone else, is quite frightening for the non-West. > Vietnam and Iraq wars It’s exactly these (older) examples which I am talking about. The West continues to fuel atrocities in the Middle East on literally a daily basis: - Syria: “CIA sold arms to Syrian rebel groups” - https://www.georgetownjournalofinternationalaffairs.org/online-edition/2019/9/2/the-arms-trade-and-syria https://www.georgetownjournalofinternationalaffairs.org/onli... - Afghanistan: “UN says more civilians killed by allies than insurgents” - https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-49165676 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-49165676
  - chaostheory 5y ago
    He is not more outspoken than “other Americans”. It’s a common sentiment for our past mistakes. Why? Because we don’t hide from them and pretend they didn’t happen. Our mistakes are recorded in literature even school textbooks, TV shows, and movies for all to see. Why? So there’s a much higher chance that we don’t repeat our mistakes, and we can be proactive at fixing issues that arise from them. This is a key feature of a democracy, though there are exceptions like Japan. I think mainland Chinese people have a hard time separating the US government from the US population because of the forced conformity that the CCP demands of them, or they would realize that a large contingent of the US population on both political spectrums has wanted to pull back our military presence for a long time now. The US population and the US government are a lot less aligned than you think. For the record, I’m a Chinese American so I’m not ignorant of what’s going on in mainland China.
  - benrbray 5y ago
    For the record, I mentioned Vietnam and Iraq not in the context of the present day, but because a significant proportion of Americans were very outspoken about those wars as they were happening. You're right, it's harder to remain actively informed about the day-to-day military action that accumulates into something awful. Even when we know about it, our political system doesn't give enough opportunities to give fine-grained feedback about specific issues. Usually the national conversation is dominated by culture war issues, and I can't help but feel that it's an intentional distraction so the public will forget that we're plundering the middle east etc.. But at least I am free to voice my opinion, and to bother all my friends and family about geopolitics when given the opportunity.
c1ccccc1 5y ago
A utilitarian perspective is probably more productive than worrying about who has the moral high ground in any case. The fact is that the situation in Xinjiang is terrible and seems to be getting worse. The question is what can be done about it. For the Chinese government, the answer is simple: Close down the internment camps, and let the people go home. But the Chinese government isn't likely to read this comment, and even less likely to act on its advice. For other countries, the available actions will be more indirect. I think we should focus on getting as many Uyghurs out of the country as possible. This would require other countries to take them in as refugees or immigrants. It would also require some way of getting them physically out of China, which would be easier with the cooperation of the Chinese government. In theory, if China views the Uyghurs as a kind of nuisance, it should easily agree to let them leave for greener pastures, but in practice that doesn't seems to be the case. Perhaps the worry is that they will badmouth China once they leave. It's probably more complicated than that, but definitely worth pondering on with so many lives at stake.
- chaostheory 5y ago
  What you’re suggesting isn’t feasible because it would mean that the CCP “loses face”. Not happening.
- yunohn 5y ago
  > A utilitarian perspective is probably more productive than worrying about who has the moral high ground in any case. While I agree with this, the OP was commenting about how their friends turn away when the issue is brought up, and comparing how OP reacts to similar crimes about their own country. So, that’s a point I felt warranted to discuss. More generally, historically, colonization has always been about “taming the savages” and “teaching them (Western) morality”. Slavery and exploitation went hand in hand with this mindset.

dirtyid 5y ago

>But I've never heard this shame reciprocated. Maybe in 100 years with benefit of hindsight, even then for performative reconciliation, such are nature of these things. A Chinese person with connection to east&west understands five years of XJ securitization that affects less than 1% of population eliminated previously regular extremist terrorist attacks with heavy sticks like internment / reducation but also carrots like development and vocational training. It's the best of a terrible situation. Meanwhile, US+coalition just exited one ME forever war, with others ongoing, many indigenous communities in west don't have running water and US for profit industrial complex jails more blacks as proportion of their population than the wildest wested funded thinktank extrapolations for XJ internmen. All without meaningful reconciliation in sight, and to the relative indifference of the "global community" that's strangely engaged in how PRC mistreats a domestic muslim minority. The TL;DR: is Chinese with dual perspective of how US/west and PRC prosecuted their war on terror hold their opinions after considered evaluation, they're silent because it's un/counter-productive to discuss with their western friends whose heads are in sand due to western propaganda. Most are tired of such westerners, majority of whom only get exposed to narrative from one side keeps asserting they wish their Chinese peers knew better. What the last few years of US manufactured consent campaigns about XJ/HK etc. has taught most Chinese (a lesson previously learned by diasphora of many global south previously targetted by US) is that free fifth estate and disucssion creates more dangerous brainwashed individuals that are both self-righteous and oblivious to their ignorance. There's no point in engaging.

c1ccccc1 5y ago
You say that China's current policy towards the Uyghurs is the "best of a terrible situation". The word "best" implies a search through all possible alternatives. So walk me through the optimization process that recommends the current policy, if you will, because it seems to my naive intuition that there were plenty of better options. Terrorism is the killing of civilians as an act of war, i.e. it's a subcategory of murder, which is highly illegal. Why were the usual law enforcement and justice systems ineffective here, lack of resources? Building large numbers of concentration camps seems very expensive, why not devote those resources to beefing up law enforcement and security? Also, Tahir Izgil and his friends and family don't appear to be mass-murderers, so what's the anti-terror benefit in locking them (and so many other innocent people) up? For that matter, what's the anti-terror benefit in making it so hard for them to leave China? If Uyghurs are considered to be such a problematic minority, why not let them simply leave?