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After visiting Auschwitz, I expected (or maybe hoped) that the world would never let it happen again. “How could they do this?”, People asked. “That would nev

After visiting Auschwitz, I expected (or maybe hoped) that the world would never let it happen again. “How could they do this?”, People asked. “That would never happen today” people murmured. Yet, here we are. Reading the 15th article about it, while the White House deletes tweets that likely anger the CCP They should be removed from most favored nation status. Governments could do a lot more but don’t

MikeUt 5y ago
> while the White House deletes tweets that likely anger the CCP I haven't heard about this. Could you elaborate?
- aidenn0 5y ago
  I've heard of tweets taken down, but always assumed Twitter was self censoring
  - djrogers 5y ago
    If Twitter censors based on gov't guidelines, suggestions, or threats, is it really 'self-censoring'? [1]https://taibbi.substack.com/p/a-case-of-intellectual-capture-on https://taibbi.substack.com/p/a-case-of-intellectual-capture...
    - aidenn0 5y ago
      We are taking about censoring of anti CCP tweets, which seems much more likely to be about money than (US) government interference
Chris2048 5y ago
Who's "they", or "the world"? Do we have a world government already? You either interfere (on a global scale) in the sovereignty of other nations, or you don't. Hitler was only stopped after a very costly war. How would any alliance have the disproportionate resources to police the globe, while allowing free trade and the distributed opportunity that allows any nations to get rich enough to challenge them? You talk of a unified humanity that doesn't exist. China is a superpower - the only solution to policing their actions would be ensuring no other superpowers can rise: neo-colonialism.
- deregulateMed 5y ago
  Tariffs over intellectual property wasn't enough or aimed at the correct problem. How hard would it be to ban trade with China? I know automotive tooling is inside china and impossible to get out, but if it costs 4 trillion dollars, it's still less expensive than coronavirus. I say all of that, then get embarrassed at the evils my government committed over the years.
  - GravitasFailure 5y ago
    >How hard would it be to ban trade with China? It depends. A lot of why China is such a manufacturing powerhouse right now is not only do they have the factories and machines, they have people trained to do that kind of work. They also have lots of factories working near each other with shipping and energy infrastructure to support them, none of which is easy to do quickly. A lack of OSHA and EPA protections certainly helps things move quickly and cheaply in ways our current automation doesn't...yet. Some industries can switch to different countries much more readily than others (injection molding is easy, rare earth production and silicon foundries much less so), so I wouldn't expect to see trade banned over night, but we have been seeing some manufacturing moving away from China for some time now.
  - Chris2048 5y ago
    > How hard would it be to ban trade with China? Very easy. That doesn't mean the rest of the world will play ball.
- tomjen3 5y ago
  You don't have to go to war over this. If the west put the same sanctions on Chinas as it did on Iran China would be forced to step down.
  - Chris2048 5y ago
    You put sanctions on China, China puts sanctions on you. Then may small asian/eastern countries will be forced to choose sides, and you'll have fewer allies/footholds when China doesn't step down.
benrbray 5y ago
It's heart-breaking to see many of my Chinese friends / peers keep their heads in the sand about this. Usually they'll fall silent the topic arises. At most, they'll say something about cultural differences and social cohesion and that as an American I just couldn't possibly understand. If I press them on it they'll mention the Japanese internment camps in WWII, and I'll agree with them that it was awful and that my country has done evil things that I am ashamed of. But I've never heard this shame reciprocated.
- Miner49er 5y ago
  I think most Americans would have gave a similar response during WWII as well. It's only with time that opinion has shifted to it being something that we are shameful of.
  - benrbray 5y ago
    There are plenty of things happening in present day American policy that I am ashamed of. On the other hand, I'm grateful that I can openly criticize my government online without fear of imprisonment.
- yunohn 5y ago
  > I'll agree with them that it was awful and that my country has done evil things that I am ashamed of I think what a lot of the non-West feels is that the West has done horrible things, benefited from it, and continues to commit modern colonialism and direct/indirect exploitation of developing countries to continually benefit from them. The dissonance is in thinking that the West is no longer doing these things and only the Enemy (China/Russia/whoever) is. Thus, taking an (invalid) higher moral ground is what probably turns your friends away.
  - benrbray 5y ago
    Plenty of Americans were very outspoken against the Vietnam and Iraq wars, among other blunders. Plenty of us find the state of American politics absolutely deplorable. There is no shortage of critics. Sure, there is plenty of room for improvement. I wish more people cared about social and economic issues, and I wish those who did care were more willing to act. But at least in America it's part of the conversation.
hnedeotes 5y ago
Unbound technological surveillance in the hands of a few, and police state on the basis of false flags are the stepping stones to RealFreedom™
- pc86 5y ago
  What false flags are you referring to?
  - throwaway316943 5y ago
    Don’t worry, I’m sure they are only referring to the approved ones. No need to get excited.
    - pc86 5y ago
      Do you think this response was helpful in any way?
lupire 5y ago
The name World War Two was a pretty big clue that humanity as a whole doesn't learn from its mistakes.
- jiaaro 5y ago
  The handling of Germany after WWII was pretty different than WWI. Perhaps a clue it’s more complicated
CountDrewku 5y ago
After the last few months I can only assume the current administration is actually supportive of communism. At best they're ignoring the atrocities in Cuba and China, at worst they're supportive of these governments... I'm starting to think it's the latter.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
shadowgovt 5y ago
Practically speaking, there's very little most governments can do to the most populous nation in the world with a military infrastructure rivaled by only a handful of other countries. And even fewer things they could do that don't ultimately culminate in massive bloodshed.
- enriquto 5y ago
  maybe stop financing them? We are voluntarily paying them to manufacture most of our stuff.
  - shadowgovt 5y ago
    (Assuming "we" here is the US) Trade embargo is a possibility, and the US has done it before. But only to smaller countries; it's a strongarm tactic, and the US's trade arm is not strong enough to do more damage to China's economy than the US would suffer cutting those ties. When an opposed nation is weaker than one's own, one can use sanctions and trade embargoes. When they're the same strength or larger? Trade embargoes cut one's own nation out of the international community. China has India and Russia right next door; they don't need the US's trade. It's definitely an option. I don't think Americans have the stomach for it. The government that tries it will be voted out and replaced by a trade-friendly one.
    - throwaway316943 5y ago
      I think 99% of Americans certainly have the stomach for it. The 1% that derive their income from skimming the difference created by cheap Chinese labor don’t.
      - shadowgovt 5y ago
        The 1% definitely skim more, but the entire American economy benefits from China trade. Every single item stamped "Made in China" gets more expensive if the scale of embargo or sanctions were attempted that would have political impact on China. It's easier to count the shelves in Walmart that aren't full of those products than the shelves that are. Wall street would feel it, but the impact on "main street" would also be immediate and painful. And it's not hard for a politician to sell "Every week just got more expensive for you" as ammunition against their opponent. It's a consistent talking point regarding gas prices, and gas prices fluctuate for reasons well outside the control of any single politician. When the price spikes actually are directly the result of political policy? Easy sell to replace those politicians.
fouc 5y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_...
tarsinge 5y ago
I feel the opposite, we started to hear so much about China overnight around 2019 that I can't help but feel it's another war the US is starting to brew and preparing the public opinion for it. Kosovo, Iraq, Syria, ... The pattern is the same everytime, the media pick a target to prepare the opinion for the warmongering. Is China doing awful things? Of course. But so is Saudi Arabia, the Yemeni crisis currently dwarf the problems in China (and Syria at the time when the US chose to intervene). I don't know what should be done, but at least US citizen please don't fall blindly for the N-th iteration of the "one and unique evil enemy of democracy that must be dealt with" du jour.
- chaostheory 5y ago
  I agree. There’s no doubt that what’s happening in Xinjiang is beyond terrible, but the West and its allies in Asia are preparing for war. I wouldn’t be surprised if India joined. The big questions are is this just a new Cold War since everyone has nukes, or will it transform into a hot one? Will Russia participate and if so which side will it take? Who will make the first strike? I have a feeling that it won’t be hard to trick Beijing into striking first. All the US needs to do is give the Taiwanese government the freedom to say whatever they want.

MikeUt 5y ago

> while the White House deletes tweets that likely anger the CCP I haven't heard about this. Could you elaborate?

aidenn0 5y ago
I've heard of tweets taken down, but always assumed Twitter was self censoring
- djrogers 5y ago
  If Twitter censors based on gov't guidelines, suggestions, or threats, is it really 'self-censoring'? [1]https://taibbi.substack.com/p/a-case-of-intellectual-capture-on https://taibbi.substack.com/p/a-case-of-intellectual-capture...
  - aidenn0 5y ago
    We are taking about censoring of anti CCP tweets, which seems much more likely to be about money than (US) government interference

Chris2048 5y ago

Who's "they", or "the world"? Do we have a world government already? You either interfere (on a global scale) in the sovereignty of other nations, or you don't. Hitler was only stopped after a very costly war. How would any alliance have the disproportionate resources to police the globe, while allowing free trade and the distributed opportunity that allows any nations to get rich enough to challenge them? You talk of a unified humanity that doesn't exist. China is a superpower - the only solution to policing their actions would be ensuring no other superpowers can rise: neo-colonialism.

deregulateMed 5y ago
Tariffs over intellectual property wasn't enough or aimed at the correct problem. How hard would it be to ban trade with China? I know automotive tooling is inside china and impossible to get out, but if it costs 4 trillion dollars, it's still less expensive than coronavirus. I say all of that, then get embarrassed at the evils my government committed over the years.
- GravitasFailure 5y ago
  >How hard would it be to ban trade with China? It depends. A lot of why China is such a manufacturing powerhouse right now is not only do they have the factories and machines, they have people trained to do that kind of work. They also have lots of factories working near each other with shipping and energy infrastructure to support them, none of which is easy to do quickly. A lack of OSHA and EPA protections certainly helps things move quickly and cheaply in ways our current automation doesn't...yet. Some industries can switch to different countries much more readily than others (injection molding is easy, rare earth production and silicon foundries much less so), so I wouldn't expect to see trade banned over night, but we have been seeing some manufacturing moving away from China for some time now.
- Chris2048 5y ago
  > How hard would it be to ban trade with China? Very easy. That doesn't mean the rest of the world will play ball.
tomjen3 5y ago
You don't have to go to war over this. If the west put the same sanctions on Chinas as it did on Iran China would be forced to step down.
- Chris2048 5y ago
  You put sanctions on China, China puts sanctions on you. Then may small asian/eastern countries will be forced to choose sides, and you'll have fewer allies/footholds when China doesn't step down.

benrbray 5y ago

It's heart-breaking to see many of my Chinese friends / peers keep their heads in the sand about this. Usually they'll fall silent the topic arises. At most, they'll say something about cultural differences and social cohesion and that as an American I just couldn't possibly understand. If I press them on it they'll mention the Japanese internment camps in WWII, and I'll agree with them that it was awful and that my country has done evil things that I am ashamed of. But I've never heard this shame reciprocated.

Miner49er 5y ago
I think most Americans would have gave a similar response during WWII as well. It's only with time that opinion has shifted to it being something that we are shameful of.
- benrbray 5y ago
  There are plenty of things happening in present day American policy that I am ashamed of. On the other hand, I'm grateful that I can openly criticize my government online without fear of imprisonment.
yunohn 5y ago
> I'll agree with them that it was awful and that my country has done evil things that I am ashamed of I think what a lot of the non-West feels is that the West has done horrible things, benefited from it, and continues to commit modern colonialism and direct/indirect exploitation of developing countries to continually benefit from them. The dissonance is in thinking that the West is no longer doing these things and only the Enemy (China/Russia/whoever) is. Thus, taking an (invalid) higher moral ground is what probably turns your friends away.
- benrbray 5y ago
  Plenty of Americans were very outspoken against the Vietnam and Iraq wars, among other blunders. Plenty of us find the state of American politics absolutely deplorable. There is no shortage of critics. Sure, there is plenty of room for improvement. I wish more people cared about social and economic issues, and I wish those who did care were more willing to act. But at least in America it's part of the conversation.

hnedeotes 5y ago

Unbound technological surveillance in the hands of a few, and police state on the basis of false flags are the stepping stones to RealFreedom™

pc86 5y ago
What false flags are you referring to?
- throwaway316943 5y ago
  Don’t worry, I’m sure they are only referring to the approved ones. No need to get excited.
  - pc86 5y ago
    Do you think this response was helpful in any way?

lupire 5y ago

The name World War Two was a pretty big clue that humanity as a whole doesn't learn from its mistakes.

jiaaro 5y ago
The handling of Germany after WWII was pretty different than WWI. Perhaps a clue it’s more complicated

CountDrewku 5y ago

After the last few months I can only assume the current administration is actually supportive of communism. At best they're ignoring the atrocities in Cuba and China, at worst they're supportive of these governments... I'm starting to think it's the latter.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

shadowgovt 5y ago

Practically speaking, there's very little most governments can do to the most populous nation in the world with a military infrastructure rivaled by only a handful of other countries. And even fewer things they could do that don't ultimately culminate in massive bloodshed.

enriquto 5y ago
maybe stop financing them? We are voluntarily paying them to manufacture most of our stuff.
- shadowgovt 5y ago
  (Assuming "we" here is the US) Trade embargo is a possibility, and the US has done it before. But only to smaller countries; it's a strongarm tactic, and the US's trade arm is not strong enough to do more damage to China's economy than the US would suffer cutting those ties. When an opposed nation is weaker than one's own, one can use sanctions and trade embargoes. When they're the same strength or larger? Trade embargoes cut one's own nation out of the international community. China has India and Russia right next door; they don't need the US's trade. It's definitely an option. I don't think Americans have the stomach for it. The government that tries it will be voted out and replaced by a trade-friendly one.
  - throwaway316943 5y ago
    I think 99% of Americans certainly have the stomach for it. The 1% that derive their income from skimming the difference created by cheap Chinese labor don’t.
    - shadowgovt 5y ago
      The 1% definitely skim more, but the entire American economy benefits from China trade. Every single item stamped "Made in China" gets more expensive if the scale of embargo or sanctions were attempted that would have political impact on China. It's easier to count the shelves in Walmart that aren't full of those products than the shelves that are. Wall street would feel it, but the impact on "main street" would also be immediate and painful. And it's not hard for a politician to sell "Every week just got more expensive for you" as ammunition against their opponent. It's a consistent talking point regarding gas prices, and gas prices fluctuate for reasons well outside the control of any single politician. When the price spikes actually are directly the result of political policy? Easy sell to replace those politicians.

fouc 5y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_...

tarsinge 5y ago

I feel the opposite, we started to hear so much about China overnight around 2019 that I can't help but feel it's another war the US is starting to brew and preparing the public opinion for it. Kosovo, Iraq, Syria, ... The pattern is the same everytime, the media pick a target to prepare the opinion for the warmongering. Is China doing awful things? Of course. But so is Saudi Arabia, the Yemeni crisis currently dwarf the problems in China (and Syria at the time when the US chose to intervene). I don't know what should be done, but at least US citizen please don't fall blindly for the N-th iteration of the "one and unique evil enemy of democracy that must be dealt with" du jour.

chaostheory 5y ago
I agree. There’s no doubt that what’s happening in Xinjiang is beyond terrible, but the West and its allies in Asia are preparing for war. I wouldn’t be surprised if India joined. The big questions are is this just a new Cold War since everyone has nukes, or will it transform into a hot one? Will Russia participate and if so which side will it take? Who will make the first strike? I have a feeling that it won’t be hard to trick Beijing into striking first. All the US needs to do is give the Taiwanese government the freedom to say whatever they want.