3 ms·

You're ignoring the clear evidence of large scale under-reporting. But there's a deeper problem. Those are not good numbers because they are drastically higher

You're ignoring the clear evidence of large scale under-reporting. But there's a deeper problem. Those are not good numbers because they are drastically higher than would be expected for a vaccine. A big part of the argument for getting vaccinated is that vaccines in general are "perfectly safe" and in particular that the vaccine is much safer than actually getting COVID. What this data shows is that these vaccines don't meet expectations established by prior campaigns, and that actually we have no real idea whatsoever of how dangerous they are, especially in the young. Consider that US all cause mortality for the under 65s is still seriously above the expected baseline despite that COVID deaths have dropped to nearly zero. Something is raising mortality, and according to the largest virus surveillance programme in history combined with the laxest classification process imaginable, it isn't COVID.

zimpenfish 5y ago
> vaccines in general are "perfectly safe" I don't think anyone has ever said that, have they? They've said things like "vaccines are pretty safe" and "the risk of something going wrong is tiny compared with the risk of being unvaccinated", sure, but I doubt any medical professional has said "perfectly safe"? > Those are not good numbers because they are drastically higher than would be expected for a vaccine. Probably the smallpox vaccination program is the only one even vaguely comparable in size to this and, yeah, that had many fewer deaths (68 in the US in 10 years, I think, but I couldn't find out how many vaccinations were actually done.) But then smallpox is a much easier thing to a) spot, b) treat, c) isolate people from, and d) create a vaccine for. > Consider that US all cause mortality for the under 65s is still seriously above the expected baseline Do you have a URL for that?
- native_samples 5y ago
  The world is a big place my friend. Here's the British Society for Immunology saying it: [1] "These vaccines are perfectly safe and are extremely effective at preventing serious illness from these infectious diseases" Pennsylvanian officials: [2] "PA (WBNG) -- Despite natural concern and curiosity over the coronavirus vaccine, Pennsylvania officials held a scientific panel Thursday to explain the vaccines are perfectly safe, even for children." A professor advising the UK government via the primary COVID vaccination committee: [3] "There is the concern that what’s happening in Europe might make people in the UK less confident in the AstraZeneca vaccine, unnecessarily so, because it’s perfectly safe" Maybe you don't consider an academic to be a medical professional, so here's a doctor in San Diego saying the same thing: [4] "“There’s no reason to think that a 16-year-old or 17-year-old is going to have a reaction that an 18-year-old is going to have. I think it’s perfectly safe,” Sawyer told ABC 10News." Re: mortality. Go to https://www.usmortality.com/ https://www.usmortality.com/ and click the 25-44 and 45-64 age check boxes, the graphs will then appear. [1] https://www.immunology.org/celebrate-vaccines/public-engagement/guide-childhood-vaccinations/common-questions https://www.immunology.org/celebrate-vaccines/public-engagem... [2] https://wbng.com/2021/06/17/pa-officials-insist-vaccine-is-safe-for-children-continue-to-encourage-vaccination/ https://wbng.com/2021/06/17/pa-officials-insist-vaccine-is-s... [3] https://inews.co.uk/news/health/oxford-astrazeneca-vaccine-safe-and-effective-european-medicines-regulator-concludes-919370 https://inews.co.uk/news/health/oxford-astrazeneca-vaccine-s... [4] https://www.10news.com/news/coronavirus/san-diego-doctor-says-covid-19-vaccine-is-perfectly-safe https://www.10news.com/news/coronavirus/san-diego-doctor-say...
  - zimpenfish 5y ago
    [1] and [2] are equivocal - [1] isn't about the C19 vaccines and [2] doesn't contain "perfectly" in the actual reported content. [3] and [4], though, I stand corrected, they do say "perfectly safe".
    - native_samples 5y ago
      Yes, but my original claim was: A big part of the argument for getting vaccinated is that vaccines in general are "perfectly safe" I was describing the scientific establishment's description of all vaccines, not just for C19. You're right about [2], it may be an interpolation by journalists. Still, it's ascribed to them and I doubt any of those officials complained about this characterisation. At any rate, this is a bit of an odd thing to be debating. "Perfectly safe" is a common turn of phrase in English. I doubt anyone who says it means it literally, and I didn't intend it to be read as such. It can be taken as a synonym for "so safe it's not worth anyone worrying about it".

zimpenfish 5y ago

> vaccines in general are "perfectly safe" I don't think anyone has ever said that, have they? They've said things like "vaccines are pretty safe" and "the risk of something going wrong is tiny compared with the risk of being unvaccinated", sure, but I doubt any medical professional has said "perfectly safe"? > Those are not good numbers because they are drastically higher than would be expected for a vaccine. Probably the smallpox vaccination program is the only one even vaguely comparable in size to this and, yeah, that had many fewer deaths (68 in the US in 10 years, I think, but I couldn't find out how many vaccinations were actually done.) But then smallpox is a much easier thing to a) spot, b) treat, c) isolate people from, and d) create a vaccine for. > Consider that US all cause mortality for the under 65s is still seriously above the expected baseline Do you have a URL for that?

native_samples 5y ago
The world is a big place my friend. Here's the British Society for Immunology saying it: [1] "These vaccines are perfectly safe and are extremely effective at preventing serious illness from these infectious diseases" Pennsylvanian officials: [2] "PA (WBNG) -- Despite natural concern and curiosity over the coronavirus vaccine, Pennsylvania officials held a scientific panel Thursday to explain the vaccines are perfectly safe, even for children." A professor advising the UK government via the primary COVID vaccination committee: [3] "There is the concern that what’s happening in Europe might make people in the UK less confident in the AstraZeneca vaccine, unnecessarily so, because it’s perfectly safe" Maybe you don't consider an academic to be a medical professional, so here's a doctor in San Diego saying the same thing: [4] "“There’s no reason to think that a 16-year-old or 17-year-old is going to have a reaction that an 18-year-old is going to have. I think it’s perfectly safe,” Sawyer told ABC 10News." Re: mortality. Go to https://www.usmortality.com/ https://www.usmortality.com/ and click the 25-44 and 45-64 age check boxes, the graphs will then appear. [1] https://www.immunology.org/celebrate-vaccines/public-engagement/guide-childhood-vaccinations/common-questions https://www.immunology.org/celebrate-vaccines/public-engagem... [2] https://wbng.com/2021/06/17/pa-officials-insist-vaccine-is-safe-for-children-continue-to-encourage-vaccination/ https://wbng.com/2021/06/17/pa-officials-insist-vaccine-is-s... [3] https://inews.co.uk/news/health/oxford-astrazeneca-vaccine-safe-and-effective-european-medicines-regulator-concludes-919370 https://inews.co.uk/news/health/oxford-astrazeneca-vaccine-s... [4] https://www.10news.com/news/coronavirus/san-diego-doctor-says-covid-19-vaccine-is-perfectly-safe https://www.10news.com/news/coronavirus/san-diego-doctor-say...
- zimpenfish 5y ago
  [1] and [2] are equivocal - [1] isn't about the C19 vaccines and [2] doesn't contain "perfectly" in the actual reported content. [3] and [4], though, I stand corrected, they do say "perfectly safe".
  - native_samples 5y ago
    Yes, but my original claim was: A big part of the argument for getting vaccinated is that vaccines in general are "perfectly safe" I was describing the scientific establishment's description of all vaccines, not just for C19. You're right about [2], it may be an interpolation by journalists. Still, it's ascribed to them and I doubt any of those officials complained about this characterisation. At any rate, this is a bit of an odd thing to be debating. "Perfectly safe" is a common turn of phrase in English. I doubt anyone who says it means it literally, and I didn't intend it to be read as such. It can be taken as a synonym for "so safe it's not worth anyone worrying about it".