4 ms·

Particularly countries like Poland and Hungary, they are very respectful of Article 1. Or Germany making so much business with China and Russia. Don't kid your

Particularly countries like Poland and Hungary, they are very respectful of Article 1. Or Germany making so much business with China and Russia. Don't kid yourself thinking that the EU is a special place that is somewhat exempt of any of this.

dave_sullivan 5y ago
There are certainly scales, it's not all uniform. But the EU is a big place and people are free to pick which country they live in. It's disingenuous to suggest it's all the same thing. The larger point of EU workers having more rights is, on average, very true. The US (and China and Russia) treats their workers very poorly by comparison.
- johnchristopher 5y ago
  > But the EU is a big place and people are free to pick which country they live in. There are limits though. You have a 3 months period where you can stay in another UE country then the national authorities can ask for your leaving. There are statuses that allows you to stay longer (work, studies, retirement, etc.) but those statuses have requirements and obligations. You can't take your tent, set it up somewhere in another country and declare you live there without some fiscal authorities coming for you at some point. If I understand correctly you are free to move from and to any states (notwithstanding court orders) in the US .
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - navaati 5y ago
    What the hell ! I moved from France to Ireland and there was no question asked at any point, I just booked a ferry and rented a flat, no paperwork at all and I could live there as long as I wanted to. I'm not so much saying you're wrong as afraid you're right, do you have sources ?
    - acatton 5y ago
      https://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=460&langId=en https://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=460&langId=en > People who are employed in another EU country are entitled to live there. Jobseekers are also allowed to stay in another country while they are looking for a job. (See the right to look for a job) > The host country may require them, as "EU migrant workers", to register with the authorities as residents. (See Directive 2004/38/EC) > Other legal and administrative formalities depend on the length of stay – up to 3 months, more than 3 months, or permanent. https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/residence/residence-rights/jobseekers/index_en.htm#just-moved https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/residence/residence-ri... > Still looking for a job after 6 months > […] > Can you be deported or asked to leave? > Your host country can ask you to leave if you can't prove that you have a realistic chance of finding work there. > In exceptional cases, your host country can deport you on grounds of public policy, public security, or public health - but only if it can prove you pose a serious threat. > The deportation decision or request to leave must be given to you in writing. It must state all the reasons for your deportation and specify how you can appeal and by when.
    - johnchristopher 5y ago
      Yes, I have googled it before posting my reply (to confirm the details of what I was sure of: there are limits). https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/residence/residence-rights/index_en.htm#inactive-citizens-1 https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/residence/residence-ri... This is part of the FAQ/information forms when asking for information about moving in a EU country for EU citizens. As an EU citizen, you have the right to move to any EU country for a period of up to 3 months as long as you have a valid identity card or passport. If you want to settle in another EU country but you have no intention to take up any work or education there, you need to prove that you: have sufficient resources for you and your family during the time you want to stay in your new country have comprehensive health insurance Reporting your presence and registering your residence During the first 3 months of your stay in your new country, as an EU citizen, you cannot be required to apply for a residence document confirming your right to live there - although in some countries you may have to report your presence upon arrival. After 3 months in your new country, you may be required to register your residence with the relevant authority (often the town hall or local police station), and to be issued with a registration certificate. You will need a valid identity card or passport and: proof of comprehensive health insurance proof you can support yourself without needing social assistance benefits: resources may come from any source, including from a third person. Can you be requested to leave or be deported? You may live in the other EU country as long as you continue to meet the conditions for residence. If you no longer do so, the national authorities may require you to leave.
  - apexalpha 5y ago
    As far as I'm aware any EU citizen can live/work/study in any other EU country for as long as they want. Even includes Norway and Switzerland. Obviously you would have to pay taxes. Or I miss the point about fiscal authorities finding you.
  - nightcracker 5y ago
    > You can't take your tent, set it up somewhere in another country and declare you live there without some fiscal authorities coming for you at some point. The only 'requirement' is that the government (may) want to see you can provide for yourself in the form of capital, a job, a retirement pension, etc. This is because most countries in the EU have a social safety net, and some have a very strong one. Without this rule the countries with the most generous social security would see mass immigration from rent seekers with no recourse. The USA doesn't need this rule because it lacks the strong social security.
    - alibarber 5y ago
      I think it doesn't need the rule more because it's a single federal republic and its citizens are citizens of the entire nation not just a single state. Whilst it's great to make generic EU vs. US statements the EU(/EEA) is still ~30 different sovereign nations with their own citizenships.
  - acatton 5y ago
    > You have a 3 months period where you can stay in another UE country then the national authorities can ask for your leaving. Maybe on paper. I wonder how much this is used. The only time I remember this being used in practice, is when Sarkozy ordered the deportation of ~100 Romanian Romanies back to Romania, as part of his attempt to siphon far right votes.[1] Apart from these few political stunts, I doubt this is often used. [1] https://www.swissinfo.ch/fre/toute-l-actu-en-bref/la-france-expulse-les-premiers-roms-depuis-les-annonces-de-sarkozy/24861698 https://www.swissinfo.ch/fre/toute-l-actu-en-bref/la-france-...
    - johnchristopher 5y ago
      > Maybe on paper. I wonder how much this is used. I think as general rule of thumb for all intents and purposes it becomes a problem when you don't have money (or do criminal stuff). > You may live in the other EU country as long as you continue to meet the conditions for residence. If you no longer do so, the national authorities may require you to leave. > In exceptional cases, your host country can deport you on grounds of public policy or public security - but only if it can prove you represent a genuine, present and sufficiently serious threat affecting one of the fundamental interests of society. > The deportation decision or the request to leave must be given to you in writing. It must state all the reasons for your deportation and specify how you can appeal and by when.
  - patall 5y ago
    > You can't take your tent, set it up somewhere in another country and declare you live there without some fiscal authorities coming for you at some point. Can you do that within any one single country? In Germany I have to register within 4 weeks of moving anywhere, it has to be a place that is registered as residential zone and you need an owner-ship or rental agreement certificate (even when living with your parents). Nothing of that is about your citizenship, so what does it have to do with another country?
    - johnchristopher 5y ago
      > Can you do that within any one single country? I don't think so, this would be surprising. > Nothing of that is about your citizenship, so what does it have to do with another country? I am sorry I don't understand this point. > In Germany I have to register within 4 weeks of moving anywhere, it has to be a place that is registered as residential zone and you need an owner-ship or rental agreement certificate (even when living with your parents). For the record, in Belgium, when moving to a different administrative territory (for lack of a better word, think cities, small territories) you have to register to your new town hall and a police officer will check you actually moved in. But if you are homeless and still have a social net the social worker can register a public place as your contact address so you keep your rights and their benefits.
    - LeonidasXIV 5y ago
      In Germany you have to have an address and submit it to the Bürgerbüro, that's all. But you can be unemployed and move from place to place in Germany, no problem, even to Flensburg. But you can't just (legally) move to up the border to Padborg in Denmark, since you need a residence permit and you only get that as a worker (or a person with sufficient funds).
- refurb 5y ago
  As someone who has worked in the US and other countries with more worker rights (EU), no the US doesn’t treat it’s worker very poorly by comparison. And the US is a big country. You can work in CA which has unemployment insurance, cheap healthcare coverage, plenty of worker protections, etc.
samsari 5y ago
Are you suggesting that the EU would be identical without Article 1 in place?
- breakfastduck 5y ago
  Considering many states outright ignore Article 1, yes
  - nchi3 5y ago
    Which are these "many states" other than Poland and Hungary? It's not like Poland and Hungary are doing so without any kind of repercussions from EU.
- southerntofu 5y ago
  How people are treated in practice is a matter of power balance between the people/workers and the exploiters. What is written in a book of law matters very little. The rule of law is a cynical joke reserved to people who can pay million-dollar lawyers. For the rest of us, only raw force and humiliation by police/tribunals exist and the law is a farce. Those in power who commit crimes will usually never spend a single day in prison, and when they exceptionally do they get built a special-purpose luxury cell which has nothing to do with prison. The rest of us get tortured and imprisoned because of fake police testimonies. The situation is not as bad here in France as it is in Belarus/China/USA/Colombia, but it's certainly not as good as human rights declaration imply. If only human rights declarations were respected, then we would have a decent life and nobody would struggle for basic survival (food & housing). Unfortunately, we all know how it goes in the 5th richest nation in the world with 10% of the population living under the poverty line.
bserge 5y ago
I was gonna say that... but I guess having that in the charter is better than nothing. It is rather laughable looking at the lives of many citizens even in richer countries, though.
nabla9 5y ago
Poland and Hungary are in violation of many articles of EU. The grievance is that the US lacks many of those articles. Principles of EU > Principles of US >>>> Principles of China.
- cookieswumchorr 5y ago
  the Poland/Hungary point relates to the recent issues with abortions and gay rights respectively. The rules in these cases may be more progressive at least in parts of the US. But if you take labor rights, these are a lot more humane in the EU
  - pitkali 5y ago
    Poland is also sabotaging independence of the courts in attacks on democratic principles.
    - cookieswumchorr 5y ago
      right, now that you mention it. They also ban research on polish collaboration with the Nazis in WWII. Come on, if you occupy a country with millions of people, of course there will be some a-holes willing to collaborate, what's the big surprise there?

dave_sullivan 5y ago

There are certainly scales, it's not all uniform. But the EU is a big place and people are free to pick which country they live in. It's disingenuous to suggest it's all the same thing. The larger point of EU workers having more rights is, on average, very true. The US (and China and Russia) treats their workers very poorly by comparison.

johnchristopher 5y ago
> But the EU is a big place and people are free to pick which country they live in. There are limits though. You have a 3 months period where you can stay in another UE country then the national authorities can ask for your leaving. There are statuses that allows you to stay longer (work, studies, retirement, etc.) but those statuses have requirements and obligations. You can't take your tent, set it up somewhere in another country and declare you live there without some fiscal authorities coming for you at some point. If I understand correctly you are free to move from and to any states (notwithstanding court orders) in the US .
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- navaati 5y ago
  What the hell ! I moved from France to Ireland and there was no question asked at any point, I just booked a ferry and rented a flat, no paperwork at all and I could live there as long as I wanted to. I'm not so much saying you're wrong as afraid you're right, do you have sources ?
  - acatton 5y ago
    https://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=460&langId=en https://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=460&langId=en > People who are employed in another EU country are entitled to live there. Jobseekers are also allowed to stay in another country while they are looking for a job. (See the right to look for a job) > The host country may require them, as "EU migrant workers", to register with the authorities as residents. (See Directive 2004/38/EC) > Other legal and administrative formalities depend on the length of stay – up to 3 months, more than 3 months, or permanent. https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/residence/residence-rights/jobseekers/index_en.htm#just-moved https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/residence/residence-ri... > Still looking for a job after 6 months > […] > Can you be deported or asked to leave? > Your host country can ask you to leave if you can't prove that you have a realistic chance of finding work there. > In exceptional cases, your host country can deport you on grounds of public policy, public security, or public health - but only if it can prove you pose a serious threat. > The deportation decision or request to leave must be given to you in writing. It must state all the reasons for your deportation and specify how you can appeal and by when.
  - johnchristopher 5y ago
    Yes, I have googled it before posting my reply (to confirm the details of what I was sure of: there are limits). https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/residence/residence-rights/index_en.htm#inactive-citizens-1 https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/residence/residence-ri... This is part of the FAQ/information forms when asking for information about moving in a EU country for EU citizens. As an EU citizen, you have the right to move to any EU country for a period of up to 3 months as long as you have a valid identity card or passport. If you want to settle in another EU country but you have no intention to take up any work or education there, you need to prove that you: have sufficient resources for you and your family during the time you want to stay in your new country have comprehensive health insurance Reporting your presence and registering your residence During the first 3 months of your stay in your new country, as an EU citizen, you cannot be required to apply for a residence document confirming your right to live there - although in some countries you may have to report your presence upon arrival. After 3 months in your new country, you may be required to register your residence with the relevant authority (often the town hall or local police station), and to be issued with a registration certificate. You will need a valid identity card or passport and: proof of comprehensive health insurance proof you can support yourself without needing social assistance benefits: resources may come from any source, including from a third person. Can you be requested to leave or be deported? You may live in the other EU country as long as you continue to meet the conditions for residence. If you no longer do so, the national authorities may require you to leave.
- apexalpha 5y ago
  As far as I'm aware any EU citizen can live/work/study in any other EU country for as long as they want. Even includes Norway and Switzerland. Obviously you would have to pay taxes. Or I miss the point about fiscal authorities finding you.
- nightcracker 5y ago
  > You can't take your tent, set it up somewhere in another country and declare you live there without some fiscal authorities coming for you at some point. The only 'requirement' is that the government (may) want to see you can provide for yourself in the form of capital, a job, a retirement pension, etc. This is because most countries in the EU have a social safety net, and some have a very strong one. Without this rule the countries with the most generous social security would see mass immigration from rent seekers with no recourse. The USA doesn't need this rule because it lacks the strong social security.
  - alibarber 5y ago
    I think it doesn't need the rule more because it's a single federal republic and its citizens are citizens of the entire nation not just a single state. Whilst it's great to make generic EU vs. US statements the EU(/EEA) is still ~30 different sovereign nations with their own citizenships.
- acatton 5y ago
  > You have a 3 months period where you can stay in another UE country then the national authorities can ask for your leaving. Maybe on paper. I wonder how much this is used. The only time I remember this being used in practice, is when Sarkozy ordered the deportation of ~100 Romanian Romanies back to Romania, as part of his attempt to siphon far right votes.[1] Apart from these few political stunts, I doubt this is often used. [1] https://www.swissinfo.ch/fre/toute-l-actu-en-bref/la-france-expulse-les-premiers-roms-depuis-les-annonces-de-sarkozy/24861698 https://www.swissinfo.ch/fre/toute-l-actu-en-bref/la-france-...
  - johnchristopher 5y ago
    > Maybe on paper. I wonder how much this is used. I think as general rule of thumb for all intents and purposes it becomes a problem when you don't have money (or do criminal stuff). > You may live in the other EU country as long as you continue to meet the conditions for residence. If you no longer do so, the national authorities may require you to leave. > In exceptional cases, your host country can deport you on grounds of public policy or public security - but only if it can prove you represent a genuine, present and sufficiently serious threat affecting one of the fundamental interests of society. > The deportation decision or the request to leave must be given to you in writing. It must state all the reasons for your deportation and specify how you can appeal and by when.
- patall 5y ago
  > You can't take your tent, set it up somewhere in another country and declare you live there without some fiscal authorities coming for you at some point. Can you do that within any one single country? In Germany I have to register within 4 weeks of moving anywhere, it has to be a place that is registered as residential zone and you need an owner-ship or rental agreement certificate (even when living with your parents). Nothing of that is about your citizenship, so what does it have to do with another country?
  - johnchristopher 5y ago
    > Can you do that within any one single country? I don't think so, this would be surprising. > Nothing of that is about your citizenship, so what does it have to do with another country? I am sorry I don't understand this point. > In Germany I have to register within 4 weeks of moving anywhere, it has to be a place that is registered as residential zone and you need an owner-ship or rental agreement certificate (even when living with your parents). For the record, in Belgium, when moving to a different administrative territory (for lack of a better word, think cities, small territories) you have to register to your new town hall and a police officer will check you actually moved in. But if you are homeless and still have a social net the social worker can register a public place as your contact address so you keep your rights and their benefits.
  - LeonidasXIV 5y ago
    In Germany you have to have an address and submit it to the Bürgerbüro, that's all. But you can be unemployed and move from place to place in Germany, no problem, even to Flensburg. But you can't just (legally) move to up the border to Padborg in Denmark, since you need a residence permit and you only get that as a worker (or a person with sufficient funds).
refurb 5y ago
As someone who has worked in the US and other countries with more worker rights (EU), no the US doesn’t treat it’s worker very poorly by comparison. And the US is a big country. You can work in CA which has unemployment insurance, cheap healthcare coverage, plenty of worker protections, etc.

samsari 5y ago

Are you suggesting that the EU would be identical without Article 1 in place?

breakfastduck 5y ago
Considering many states outright ignore Article 1, yes
- nchi3 5y ago
  Which are these "many states" other than Poland and Hungary? It's not like Poland and Hungary are doing so without any kind of repercussions from EU.
southerntofu 5y ago
How people are treated in practice is a matter of power balance between the people/workers and the exploiters. What is written in a book of law matters very little. The rule of law is a cynical joke reserved to people who can pay million-dollar lawyers. For the rest of us, only raw force and humiliation by police/tribunals exist and the law is a farce. Those in power who commit crimes will usually never spend a single day in prison, and when they exceptionally do they get built a special-purpose luxury cell which has nothing to do with prison. The rest of us get tortured and imprisoned because of fake police testimonies. The situation is not as bad here in France as it is in Belarus/China/USA/Colombia, but it's certainly not as good as human rights declaration imply. If only human rights declarations were respected, then we would have a decent life and nobody would struggle for basic survival (food & housing). Unfortunately, we all know how it goes in the 5th richest nation in the world with 10% of the population living under the poverty line.

bserge 5y ago

I was gonna say that... but I guess having that in the charter is better than nothing. It is rather laughable looking at the lives of many citizens even in richer countries, though.

nabla9 5y ago

Poland and Hungary are in violation of many articles of EU. The grievance is that the US lacks many of those articles. Principles of EU > Principles of US >>>> Principles of China.

cookieswumchorr 5y ago
the Poland/Hungary point relates to the recent issues with abortions and gay rights respectively. The rules in these cases may be more progressive at least in parts of the US. But if you take labor rights, these are a lot more humane in the EU
- pitkali 5y ago
  Poland is also sabotaging independence of the courts in attacks on democratic principles.
  - cookieswumchorr 5y ago
    right, now that you mention it. They also ban research on polish collaboration with the Nazis in WWII. Come on, if you occupy a country with millions of people, of course there will be some a-holes willing to collaborate, what's the big surprise there?