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Reading articles like this makes me appreciate living in the EU. It's not always great, but clearly it could be worse. Article 1 of the EU Charter of Fundament

Reading articles like this makes me appreciate living in the EU. It's not always great, but clearly it could be worse. Article 1 of the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights states "Human dignity is inviolable. It must be respected and protected." I feel like that would be broken were we to allow this behaviour towards workers.

Hobli 5y ago
The EU like Bezos didnt care about it much while their empires expanded. The "enlightenment" happened only after their arms race to colonize the planet ended in world wars. Learning takes time. Emporer Bezos is thankfully a tad smarter than the Kings and Queens of the EU and his road to "enlightenment" will be much shorter with less devastation and trauma. I just hope, after they learn their lessons, the Amazon corporate robots will be less sanctimonious than present day Europeans.
- brainless 5y ago
  As much as I agree with you, this should only give us more reasons to not let this happen. And more importantly people like Bezos should not be made idols. People should vocally complain what is wrong with this like many colonial nations complain (and I wholeheartedly support that). But I agree, learning takes time.
- ben_w 5y ago
  The EU did not exist when the member states were expanding their empires. The UK joined the predecessor to the EU as a result of losing much of its empire. Indeed, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the European Convention of Human Rights both happened in the gap between WW2 and the Treaty of Rome. Though all this is a somewhat of an apples-to-vodka comparison, given the monarchs in Europe who are the same age as Bezos (e.g. Felipe VI) have a fairly different power dynamic than the founder, executive chairman, and 10% owner of a conglomerate valued at a trillion dollars even in those cases where they’re still getting their faces on all the money (Felipe doesn’t). This is all tangential to how well the article characterises the working environment at Amazon — Gell-Mann applies at the best of times, and Big Tech is big enough for capital-P-Politics to be important, but likewise none of that makes it wrong, and if it’s right, Amazon has no excuse for repeating well-trodden mistakes.
cyrksoft 5y ago
Particularly countries like Poland and Hungary, they are very respectful of Article 1. Or Germany making so much business with China and Russia. Don't kid yourself thinking that the EU is a special place that is somewhat exempt of any of this.
- dave_sullivan 5y ago
  There are certainly scales, it's not all uniform. But the EU is a big place and people are free to pick which country they live in. It's disingenuous to suggest it's all the same thing. The larger point of EU workers having more rights is, on average, very true. The US (and China and Russia) treats their workers very poorly by comparison.
  - johnchristopher 5y ago
    > But the EU is a big place and people are free to pick which country they live in. There are limits though. You have a 3 months period where you can stay in another UE country then the national authorities can ask for your leaving. There are statuses that allows you to stay longer (work, studies, retirement, etc.) but those statuses have requirements and obligations. You can't take your tent, set it up somewhere in another country and declare you live there without some fiscal authorities coming for you at some point. If I understand correctly you are free to move from and to any states (notwithstanding court orders) in the US .
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - navaati 5y ago
      What the hell ! I moved from France to Ireland and there was no question asked at any point, I just booked a ferry and rented a flat, no paperwork at all and I could live there as long as I wanted to. I'm not so much saying you're wrong as afraid you're right, do you have sources ?
      - 5y ago
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
southerntofu 5y ago
Everything could be worse, but let's not be blind to the problems we face here in the EU. First of which, if your rights are being infringed, then you have to wait for years and years to be able to appeal to the European Court of Human Rights, only after all of your national appeals have been depleted. Which, when you know how national governments can destroy you trough legal proceedings (eg. Aaron Swartz, physical/psychological torture by police/prison, etc) is a HUGE problem. The truth is there's no place for human dignity anywhere in the industrial capitalist civilization, because it's all about profits. Remember the Aquarius? European governments were competing in cruelty, refusing to welcome these refugees. At one point, a french-colonized island (Corsica) proposed to receive them... which the national government denied. Or take a look at police abuse cases. How many people have to die or lose an eye before we acknowledge the police is a terrorist organization and needs to be treated as such? TRIGGER WARNING: this is just from the gilets jaunes protests, there's a lot more injuries/deaths due to "non-lethal weapons" -> http://lemurjaune.fr/ http://lemurjaune.fr/ Lately, the French government has renewed its tradition to persecute anarchists (in the 19th century, anarchism became illegal and the ancestor of Interpol was founded to repress anarchism) and keeps on rounding up more people for "criminal organizations with a terrorist purpose" (association de malfaiteurs à caractère terroriste). This happened in anti-nuclear struggles in Bure as well as for spraypaint in Toulouse (though not with the terrorist label), in anti-GSM struggles in the plateau des Mille-Vaches, but also against activists who are not accused of anything beyond thought crimes (the 8th of december arrestees), one of which is being held in solitary confinement since early december as psychological torture in an attempt to break him down before trial. No, human rights are never compatible with a Nation State. Because a Nation State is a construct based on violence and exploitation. In my humble opinion, we should burn all States and corporations if we want a tiny chance to live free. But since today is french national day, let's take a minute to remember that this day celebrates July 14th 1789 when armed peasants took the Bastille prison by force and liberating everyone, marking the start of the revolution. Kissing the arse of the french army's défilé is an insult to the french revolution. Admittedly, all of France is an insult to the french revolution and its ideals of freedom, equality and siblinghood. Nique la France! Feu aux prisons!
- ahthat 5y ago
  That is the whole point of the state: that it is permitted to conduct violence for its preservation. In republics/representative democracies, the people endow the state with this power via elections. It's not a utopia, but at the end of the day the ownership of the state remains with the people, that is, a collective of individually thinking voting persons. This is in utter contrast to the monarchies and despotisms that preceded modern representative democracies.
ReptileMan 5y ago
I would have preferred EU to have stayed purely economic bloc without Brussels ideology and bureaucracy. Make sure that capital, people and goods move without too much friction and the rest will sort itself out in couple of generations.
- oblio 5y ago
  Yeah, the invisible hand. Economy is inherently tied to politics. Economy is *politics*.
cutler 5y ago
After Brexit human rights are no longer guaranteed in the UK as witnessed in the way the Home Office operates. Boris is also hell bent on making London a haven for big tech free from EU Tax regulations.
mlindner 5y ago
To each to their own. I'm glad I don't live in the EU as I know I would get too stressed out by the restrictions placed upon individuals living there.
- dale_glass 5y ago
  Which are those? I'm not really noticing here.
  - refurb 5y ago
    Not going to lie but the 90 day UK notice period when you quit is a massive hassle. Yeah I get that it’s tit for tat - your company can’t fire you tomorrow. But man, compared to the US where I can give notice, take my left over vacation and start at a new company all in 2 weeks, it does a lot for worker mobility.
    - goodpoint 5y ago
      > does a lot for worker mobility [Surprise or downwards] mobility is what people want to avoid in permanent employment. Such contracts are meant to give people the peace of mind that they focus on life and work and not think constantly about searching for the next job. If you want mobility and higher pay, contracting is very popular in the UK.
- GuB-42 5y ago
  If you are a business owner, you may have a point, otherwise, there may be more restrictions, but most of them are so that you can actually enjoy your individual freedoms. In the US you may be free in theory but if your job requires you to work 14 hours a day and you can't afford to quit, then, in practice, you are a slave. In many parts of Europe, you have laws that simply don't allow people to work 14 hours a day, and the remaining hours are under a minimum wage. So yes, it is a restriction on the individual, but in the end, employees have more freedom. It is far from perfect, but in general most of the EU is less stressed than the US. But as you said, to each their own, to a minority of people, the US is the best. Many software devs are part of that minority.
refurb 5y ago
Article 1 seems like a feel good statement that isn’t objectively measurable thus can mean whatever you want it to mean. Which is clear when you look at the living conditions of refugees in some EU countries.

Hobli 5y ago

The EU like Bezos didnt care about it much while their empires expanded. The "enlightenment" happened only after their arms race to colonize the planet ended in world wars. Learning takes time. Emporer Bezos is thankfully a tad smarter than the Kings and Queens of the EU and his road to "enlightenment" will be much shorter with less devastation and trauma. I just hope, after they learn their lessons, the Amazon corporate robots will be less sanctimonious than present day Europeans.

brainless 5y ago
As much as I agree with you, this should only give us more reasons to not let this happen. And more importantly people like Bezos should not be made idols. People should vocally complain what is wrong with this like many colonial nations complain (and I wholeheartedly support that). But I agree, learning takes time.
ben_w 5y ago
The EU did not exist when the member states were expanding their empires. The UK joined the predecessor to the EU as a result of losing much of its empire. Indeed, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the European Convention of Human Rights both happened in the gap between WW2 and the Treaty of Rome. Though all this is a somewhat of an apples-to-vodka comparison, given the monarchs in Europe who are the same age as Bezos (e.g. Felipe VI) have a fairly different power dynamic than the founder, executive chairman, and 10% owner of a conglomerate valued at a trillion dollars even in those cases where they’re still getting their faces on all the money (Felipe doesn’t). This is all tangential to how well the article characterises the working environment at Amazon — Gell-Mann applies at the best of times, and Big Tech is big enough for capital-P-Politics to be important, but likewise none of that makes it wrong, and if it’s right, Amazon has no excuse for repeating well-trodden mistakes.

cyrksoft 5y ago

Particularly countries like Poland and Hungary, they are very respectful of Article 1. Or Germany making so much business with China and Russia. Don't kid yourself thinking that the EU is a special place that is somewhat exempt of any of this.

dave_sullivan 5y ago
There are certainly scales, it's not all uniform. But the EU is a big place and people are free to pick which country they live in. It's disingenuous to suggest it's all the same thing. The larger point of EU workers having more rights is, on average, very true. The US (and China and Russia) treats their workers very poorly by comparison.
- johnchristopher 5y ago
  > But the EU is a big place and people are free to pick which country they live in. There are limits though. You have a 3 months period where you can stay in another UE country then the national authorities can ask for your leaving. There are statuses that allows you to stay longer (work, studies, retirement, etc.) but those statuses have requirements and obligations. You can't take your tent, set it up somewhere in another country and declare you live there without some fiscal authorities coming for you at some point. If I understand correctly you are free to move from and to any states (notwithstanding court orders) in the US .
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - navaati 5y ago
    What the hell ! I moved from France to Ireland and there was no question asked at any point, I just booked a ferry and rented a flat, no paperwork at all and I could live there as long as I wanted to. I'm not so much saying you're wrong as afraid you're right, do you have sources ?
    - 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

southerntofu 5y ago

Everything could be worse, but let's not be blind to the problems we face here in the EU. First of which, if your rights are being infringed, then you have to wait for years and years to be able to appeal to the European Court of Human Rights, only after all of your national appeals have been depleted. Which, when you know how national governments can destroy you trough legal proceedings (eg. Aaron Swartz, physical/psychological torture by police/prison, etc) is a HUGE problem. The truth is there's no place for human dignity anywhere in the industrial capitalist civilization, because it's all about profits. Remember the Aquarius? European governments were competing in cruelty, refusing to welcome these refugees. At one point, a french-colonized island (Corsica) proposed to receive them... which the national government denied. Or take a look at police abuse cases. How many people have to die or lose an eye before we acknowledge the police is a terrorist organization and needs to be treated as such? TRIGGER WARNING: this is just from the gilets jaunes protests, there's a lot more injuries/deaths due to "non-lethal weapons" -> http://lemurjaune.fr/ http://lemurjaune.fr/ Lately, the French government has renewed its tradition to persecute anarchists (in the 19th century, anarchism became illegal and the ancestor of Interpol was founded to repress anarchism) and keeps on rounding up more people for "criminal organizations with a terrorist purpose" (association de malfaiteurs à caractère terroriste). This happened in anti-nuclear struggles in Bure as well as for spraypaint in Toulouse (though not with the terrorist label), in anti-GSM struggles in the plateau des Mille-Vaches, but also against activists who are not accused of anything beyond thought crimes (the 8th of december arrestees), one of which is being held in solitary confinement since early december as psychological torture in an attempt to break him down before trial. No, human rights are never compatible with a Nation State. Because a Nation State is a construct based on violence and exploitation. In my humble opinion, we should burn all States and corporations if we want a tiny chance to live free. But since today is french national day, let's take a minute to remember that this day celebrates July 14th 1789 when armed peasants took the Bastille prison by force and liberating everyone, marking the start of the revolution. Kissing the arse of the french army's défilé is an insult to the french revolution. Admittedly, all of France is an insult to the french revolution and its ideals of freedom, equality and siblinghood. Nique la France! Feu aux prisons!

ahthat 5y ago
That is the whole point of the state: that it is permitted to conduct violence for its preservation. In republics/representative democracies, the people endow the state with this power via elections. It's not a utopia, but at the end of the day the ownership of the state remains with the people, that is, a collective of individually thinking voting persons. This is in utter contrast to the monarchies and despotisms that preceded modern representative democracies.

ReptileMan 5y ago

I would have preferred EU to have stayed purely economic bloc without Brussels ideology and bureaucracy. Make sure that capital, people and goods move without too much friction and the rest will sort itself out in couple of generations.

oblio 5y ago
Yeah, the invisible hand. Economy is inherently tied to politics. Economy is *politics*.

cutler 5y ago

After Brexit human rights are no longer guaranteed in the UK as witnessed in the way the Home Office operates. Boris is also hell bent on making London a haven for big tech free from EU Tax regulations.

mlindner 5y ago

To each to their own. I'm glad I don't live in the EU as I know I would get too stressed out by the restrictions placed upon individuals living there.

dale_glass 5y ago
Which are those? I'm not really noticing here.
- refurb 5y ago
  Not going to lie but the 90 day UK notice period when you quit is a massive hassle. Yeah I get that it’s tit for tat - your company can’t fire you tomorrow. But man, compared to the US where I can give notice, take my left over vacation and start at a new company all in 2 weeks, it does a lot for worker mobility.
  - goodpoint 5y ago
    > does a lot for worker mobility [Surprise or downwards] mobility is what people want to avoid in permanent employment. Such contracts are meant to give people the peace of mind that they focus on life and work and not think constantly about searching for the next job. If you want mobility and higher pay, contracting is very popular in the UK.
GuB-42 5y ago
If you are a business owner, you may have a point, otherwise, there may be more restrictions, but most of them are so that you can actually enjoy your individual freedoms. In the US you may be free in theory but if your job requires you to work 14 hours a day and you can't afford to quit, then, in practice, you are a slave. In many parts of Europe, you have laws that simply don't allow people to work 14 hours a day, and the remaining hours are under a minimum wage. So yes, it is a restriction on the individual, but in the end, employees have more freedom. It is far from perfect, but in general most of the EU is less stressed than the US. But as you said, to each their own, to a minority of people, the US is the best. Many software devs are part of that minority.

refurb 5y ago

Article 1 seems like a feel good statement that isn’t objectively measurable thus can mean whatever you want it to mean. Which is clear when you look at the living conditions of refugees in some EU countries.