5 ms·

There are two ways you can look at this. What I expect is people will mock and call citizens and lawmakers ignorant, and call for some tougher mechanism to make

There are two ways you can look at this. What I expect is people will mock and call citizens and lawmakers ignorant, and call for some tougher mechanism to make sure people get vaccinated. The other is that when you push too hard, you get pushback, you catch more flies with honey than vinegar, etc. We are seeing this in other areas too, where pushing too hard on a liberal democratic (for lack of a better term) agenda leads to populist revolt, and effectively swings the pendulum way back past where most agree it reasonably should be. Until recently, it would only have been an extreme fringe group that was against long standing childhood vaccines. But it's not a surprise that when you start pushing people to do something, they start to become more wary and reject things that they previously would have accepted at face value. There is a pathway to authoritarianism where resistant is met by more and harsher rules, and one to a more enlightened society where people are treated like adults and mostly make the right choice.

kjs3 5y ago
So we pander to idiots. Great plan.
gruez 5y ago
>The other is that when you push too hard, you get pushback, you catch more flies with honey than vinegar, etc What type of "outreach" programs can be described as being closer to "vinegar" than "honey"?
- kyleee 5y ago
  Maybe #nojabnojob ? I'm sure there are others
  - pseudalopex 5y ago
    That's a policy some companies have chosen. Not a Tennessee Department of Health outreach program.
    - overboard2 5y ago
      https://www.cnn.com/videos/health/2021/07/13/tennessee-top-vaccine-official-fired-after-saying-it-was-ok-to-vaccinate-minors-intv-newday-vpx.cnn https://www.cnn.com/videos/health/2021/07/13/tennessee-top-v... They shared a memo stating that they could vaccinate minors without parental consent.
      - pseudalopex 5y ago
        The memo was sent to medical providers to explain state law. And how does that relate to #nojabnojob?
toomuchtodo 5y ago
> and one to a more enlightened society where people are treated like adults and mostly make the right choice. We tried that. It was not very effective in the most recent experiment [1]. Nor those before [2] [3]. If we allow you adult choices, and you make choices that harm others (not getting vaccinated for whatever illegitimate reason is put forth), you end up having to be coaxed with policy (mandatory vaccinations by schools and employers) because you are not an adult capable of making adult decisions (you don't qualify for welfare in Australia if you don't get your kids vaccinated, for example [4]). Harm yourself, by all means, that is your choice to make. Harming others (those who cannot get the vaccine for legitimate reasons) because of your ignorance infringes on their rights, and should under no circumstances be tolerated. [1] https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/why-the-delta-variant-is-causing-an-explosion-of-cases-among-the-unvaccinated https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/why-the-delta-variant-is... (PBS: Why the delta variant is causing an explosion of cases among the unvaccinated) [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6657116/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6657116/ (Anti-Vaccine Decision-Making and Measles Resurgence in the United States) [3] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29773050/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29773050/ (The Importance of Complying with Vaccination Protocols in Developed Countries: "Anti-Vax" Hysteria and the Spread of Severe Preventable Diseases) [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Jab,_No_Pay https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Jab,_No_Pay (The policies grew out of a grassroots campaign championed by News Limited, in 2013. It was boosted by parent activists representing children who had died of preventable disease, notably the families of Riley Hughes and Dana McCaffery, infants who died of pertussis, leading to a backlash of harassment and trolling from anti-vaccination activists. No Jab No Pay was introduced in 2015, and expanded in July 2018. By July 2016, 148,000 children who had not previously been fully immunised, were meeting the new requirements.) (my note: get your vaccine already if you haven't)
- rayiner 5y ago
  > If we allow you adult choices, and you make choices that harm others So we can go back to banning adultery and divorce?
  - toomuchtodo 5y ago
harimau777 5y ago
I'm not sure what the alternative is. The status quo wasn't working.
- mmastrac 5y ago
  Apparently we need to let these viruses come back and just firewall all these places off when they suffer from epidemic infections.
  - loonster 5y ago
    Stripping liability protection from vaccine manufacturers would inspire confidence.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - toast0 5y ago
      In the US, most of the childhood vaccines have their liability covered by the US Government under the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program. Covid-19 vaccine liability is covered by the US government under the Countermeasures Injury Compensation Program. Drug companies have big pockets, but the US Government has even bigger pockets. I care more about being able to seek redress than who it's coming from.
      - loonster 5y ago
        Its not about compensation. The companies themselves have less skin in the game. Did they lower their internal standards because they now have less to lose? edit: It doesn't matter if the vaccine manufacturers lowered their standards. It is the perception that they may have.
        pseudalopex 5y ago
        The point is the companies have the usual amount of skin in the game for a vaccine.
pcmaffey 5y ago
What exactly is being pushed onerously upon these people that’s making them push back? Mask requirements in a pandemic? Taxes? Cancel culture? Seat belt laws? Gun buying restrictions? Brown neighbors? I’m not sure I follow.
- toomuchtodo 5y ago
  > making them push back Narcissistic [1] tendencies when faced with challenges of fragile egos which shakes their self. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder#Signs_and_symptoms https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disor...
  - space_fountain 5y ago
    edit: I totally misread this. Sorry about that. The rest of the comment just included for context I feel like this comment and the one it's replying to perfectly articulates the real problem. Vaccination has gotten pulled into the web of politically charged topics. Even just a few years ago the anti vac sentiments didn't really have a home, but now we quickly default to litigating literally the culture war. I know you're replying to someone who brought the wider issues into it, but narcissism is definitely not at the root of a desire to have more people vaccinated.
    - toomuchtodo 5y ago
      > but narcissism is definitely not at the root of a desire to have more people vaccinated. Correct, and I didn't think that's what my comment implied. I argue it's the root cause of why people won't get vaccinated, and why they push back, on taxes, vaccines, cancel culture, seat belt laws, and gun buying restrictions as enumerated by GP. Fragile egos, a grandiose sense of self-importance, believing they are special, and a lack of empathy, high level. There's a reason I linked to the Signs and Symptoms of that wikipedia page.
      - space_fountain 5y ago
        Whoops, sorry about that, I'll edit my comment to note I just was totally misreading you. I feel like narcissism is often a claim leveled against the more identify politics parts of the left and I went from there
ojbyrne 5y ago
There is another way to look at it. The conservative agenda (for lack of a better term) has been pushed aggressively for 30 years, well beyond the point where most people reasonably expect it should be. The “liberal agenda” is the pushback. The last hangers-on want to push even more harshly on their extremism to rally their diminishing base. The phrase “lost cause” comes to mind.
- loonster 5y ago
  That's interesting because I would say the exact opposite.
_huayra_ 5y ago
The reason authoritarianism is so popular is because the Dems have not pushed for significant, FDR-style reforms that would materially improve people's lives. If they actually fought for universal healthcare, guaranteed parental leave, police reform, instead of just having Nancy Pelosi take a knee wearing some African garb while making Madoff-level returns on her insider trading, this level of populism would not turn into fascism. If you don't believe me, you can find videos of these trump idiots screeching in some town hall about "over regulation" and "tyranny" and "socialism!" but they then say "and keep your hands off my medicare and social security!".
smbv 5y ago
> catch more flies with honey than vinegar Not really true... https://xkcd.com/357/ https://xkcd.com/357/

kjs3 5y ago

So we pander to idiots. Great plan.

gruez 5y ago

>The other is that when you push too hard, you get pushback, you catch more flies with honey than vinegar, etc What type of "outreach" programs can be described as being closer to "vinegar" than "honey"?

kyleee 5y ago
Maybe #nojabnojob ? I'm sure there are others
- pseudalopex 5y ago
  That's a policy some companies have chosen. Not a Tennessee Department of Health outreach program.
  - overboard2 5y ago
    https://www.cnn.com/videos/health/2021/07/13/tennessee-top-vaccine-official-fired-after-saying-it-was-ok-to-vaccinate-minors-intv-newday-vpx.cnn https://www.cnn.com/videos/health/2021/07/13/tennessee-top-v... They shared a memo stating that they could vaccinate minors without parental consent.
    - pseudalopex 5y ago
      The memo was sent to medical providers to explain state law. And how does that relate to #nojabnojob?

toomuchtodo 5y ago

> and one to a more enlightened society where people are treated like adults and mostly make the right choice. We tried that. It was not very effective in the most recent experiment [1]. Nor those before [2] [3]. If we allow you adult choices, and you make choices that harm others (not getting vaccinated for whatever illegitimate reason is put forth), you end up having to be coaxed with policy (mandatory vaccinations by schools and employers) because you are not an adult capable of making adult decisions (you don't qualify for welfare in Australia if you don't get your kids vaccinated, for example [4]). Harm yourself, by all means, that is your choice to make. Harming others (those who cannot get the vaccine for legitimate reasons) because of your ignorance infringes on their rights, and should under no circumstances be tolerated. [1] https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/why-the-delta-variant-is-causing-an-explosion-of-cases-among-the-unvaccinated https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/why-the-delta-variant-is... (PBS: Why the delta variant is causing an explosion of cases among the unvaccinated) [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6657116/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6657116/ (Anti-Vaccine Decision-Making and Measles Resurgence in the United States) [3] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29773050/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29773050/ (The Importance of Complying with Vaccination Protocols in Developed Countries: "Anti-Vax" Hysteria and the Spread of Severe Preventable Diseases) [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Jab,_No_Pay https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Jab,_No_Pay (The policies grew out of a grassroots campaign championed by News Limited, in 2013. It was boosted by parent activists representing children who had died of preventable disease, notably the families of Riley Hughes and Dana McCaffery, infants who died of pertussis, leading to a backlash of harassment and trolling from anti-vaccination activists. No Jab No Pay was introduced in 2015, and expanded in July 2018. By July 2016, 148,000 children who had not previously been fully immunised, were meeting the new requirements.) (my note: get your vaccine already if you haven't)

rayiner 5y ago
> If we allow you adult choices, and you make choices that harm others So we can go back to banning adultery and divorce?
- toomuchtodo 5y ago

harimau777 5y ago

I'm not sure what the alternative is. The status quo wasn't working.

mmastrac 5y ago
Apparently we need to let these viruses come back and just firewall all these places off when they suffer from epidemic infections.
- loonster 5y ago
  Stripping liability protection from vaccine manufacturers would inspire confidence.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - toast0 5y ago
    In the US, most of the childhood vaccines have their liability covered by the US Government under the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program. Covid-19 vaccine liability is covered by the US government under the Countermeasures Injury Compensation Program. Drug companies have big pockets, but the US Government has even bigger pockets. I care more about being able to seek redress than who it's coming from.
    - loonster 5y ago
      Its not about compensation. The companies themselves have less skin in the game. Did they lower their internal standards because they now have less to lose? edit: It doesn't matter if the vaccine manufacturers lowered their standards. It is the perception that they may have.
      - pseudalopex 5y ago
        The point is the companies have the usual amount of skin in the game for a vaccine.

pcmaffey 5y ago

What exactly is being pushed onerously upon these people that’s making them push back? Mask requirements in a pandemic? Taxes? Cancel culture? Seat belt laws? Gun buying restrictions? Brown neighbors? I’m not sure I follow.

toomuchtodo 5y ago
> making them push back Narcissistic [1] tendencies when faced with challenges of fragile egos which shakes their self. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder#Signs_and_symptoms https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disor...
- space_fountain 5y ago
  edit: I totally misread this. Sorry about that. The rest of the comment just included for context I feel like this comment and the one it's replying to perfectly articulates the real problem. Vaccination has gotten pulled into the web of politically charged topics. Even just a few years ago the anti vac sentiments didn't really have a home, but now we quickly default to litigating literally the culture war. I know you're replying to someone who brought the wider issues into it, but narcissism is definitely not at the root of a desire to have more people vaccinated.
  - toomuchtodo 5y ago
    > but narcissism is definitely not at the root of a desire to have more people vaccinated. Correct, and I didn't think that's what my comment implied. I argue it's the root cause of why people won't get vaccinated, and why they push back, on taxes, vaccines, cancel culture, seat belt laws, and gun buying restrictions as enumerated by GP. Fragile egos, a grandiose sense of self-importance, believing they are special, and a lack of empathy, high level. There's a reason I linked to the Signs and Symptoms of that wikipedia page.
    - space_fountain 5y ago
      Whoops, sorry about that, I'll edit my comment to note I just was totally misreading you. I feel like narcissism is often a claim leveled against the more identify politics parts of the left and I went from there

ojbyrne 5y ago

There is another way to look at it. The conservative agenda (for lack of a better term) has been pushed aggressively for 30 years, well beyond the point where most people reasonably expect it should be. The “liberal agenda” is the pushback. The last hangers-on want to push even more harshly on their extremism to rally their diminishing base. The phrase “lost cause” comes to mind.

loonster 5y ago
That's interesting because I would say the exact opposite.

_huayra_ 5y ago

The reason authoritarianism is so popular is because the Dems have not pushed for significant, FDR-style reforms that would materially improve people's lives. If they actually fought for universal healthcare, guaranteed parental leave, police reform, instead of just having Nancy Pelosi take a knee wearing some African garb while making Madoff-level returns on her insider trading, this level of populism would not turn into fascism. If you don't believe me, you can find videos of these trump idiots screeching in some town hall about "over regulation" and "tyranny" and "socialism!" but they then say "and keep your hands off my medicare and social security!".

smbv 5y ago

> catch more flies with honey than vinegar Not really true... https://xkcd.com/357/ https://xkcd.com/357/