6 ms·

mRNA Vaccines May Pack More Persistent Punch Against Covid-19 Than Thought

29 points by Anon84 5y ago

version_five 5y ago
Interesting and promising to hear. I dont like this sort of thing: > That’s why it remains so critical that more Americans get vaccinated not only to protect themselves and their loved ones, but to help stop the virus’s spread in their communities and thereby reduce its ability to mutate. I see this is a blog and not a journal paper, but this kind of motherhood statement lowers the overall credibility. Also, it was interesting to see that pfizer was quick to say a booster was necessary soon. I hadn't thought about that before but it's no surprise that pharmaceutical companies would want to do everything they can to turn this into ARR instead of just a one shot fix. This is something that is going to require real vigilance.
- ideamotor 5y ago
  It’s a factual scientific statement that absolutely should be stated by as many people of all professions as possible, especially scientists that study this exact topic. You lost your credibility when you threw this shit on it.
  - amznthrwaway 5y ago
    CPAC audiences recently applauded low vaccination rates. The right wing has gone completely insane.
  - version_five 5y ago
    I disagree, specifically with the idea of mixing telling people what to do with reporting cause and effect. The latter is clearly within the realm of the researcher's expertise. The former is a more complex political decision that has a lot of other factors. In this case, the statement (get vaccicanted) is not even controversial. But it's the principal of specialists mixing telling people as a group what to do with the results of their studies that I object to. I dont expect my point to be understood or appreciated (people literally looked into my comment history and downvoted past comments when I posted the GP) but I want to clarify my point. Treatment science as a religion is not a way forward, even if scientists say things you agree with.
    - glial 5y ago
      > the principal of specialists mixing telling people as a group what to do When specialists tell you not to drink contaminated lake water, or to wear a mask when removing asbestos tiles, or to get a colonoscopy when you turn 50, do you reject those recommendations also?
      - spookthesunset 5y ago
        Those people are acting within their specialty. For the last year and a half the only voice in the room that was allowed was that of the doomsday epidemiologist. Whatever recommendations they said were taken at face value with no thought or regard to any other specialty at all. Epidemiologists are not experts in political science, economics, mental health, education, public health, business, finance, behavioral health, law or anything else. When these people make unilateral public policy decisions, they are operating well outside their expertise. Unilateral myopic Technocracy ain’t what it was made out to be. It appears to quickly devolve into straight fascism.
        ideamotor 5y ago
        Quite the contrary, we let many absolute psychos in the room. Notably, Trump. And we are far worse for it, and are about to be hit in the face for it. It’s absolutely false that only epidemiologists were the only voice or decision maker. You’re dreaming something up. P.S. I don’t downvote. Finally, I have a degree in public policy that included classes in political science, statistics, economics, business, finance, and law. So listen to me. ;)
        glial 5y ago
        > Epidemiologists are not experts in political science, economics, mental health, education, public health, business, finance, behavioral health, law or anything else. OK, but the parent was complaining about recommendations that people get vaccinated, which is what I was responding to.
- deregulateMed 5y ago
  The blog post cites the scientific study here https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34182569/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34182569/
- andrewclunn 5y ago
  Opinions are facts wen the halls of power say they are. Now conform slave!
- Someone1234 5y ago
  The booster is targeting the delta variant, rather than the [original] alpha variant. It is essentially a tweak to the original vaccine to improve immune response. > no surprise that pharmaceutical companies would want to do everything they can to turn this into ARR instead of just a one shot fix Are you suggesting pharmaceutical companies are creating the COVID-19 variants? Because if not then this line of complaint is confusing.
- vmception 5y ago
  The public sector exists to curb the excesses of private organizations regardless of whether the private organization provides a useful service. It doesn’t require a conspiracy to understand that pfizer will both provide a benign working solution and also try to leverage their position in the community to sell unnecessary things This isn’t that hard
vimy 5y ago
Don’t viruses mutate to become less deadly over time? If so, why is there so much concern over mutations? Isn’t that what we want.
- deregulateMed 5y ago
  Viruses mutate without thought. Some will be more deadly, others less. Some more contagious, some less. Consider the seemingly randomness of chemistry at the biological level is what determines this. Although less deadly, highly contagious are more likely to spread for longer.
- guscost 5y ago
  What you are referring to is called the “transmission-virulence tradeoff theory” and while it does not guarantee that this virus will do what you claim, it is remarkable that public health officials and journalists do not mention it. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30734920/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30734920/
  - ksaj 5y ago
    They would mention it if they saw it occurring. It's not. You can imagine if they did, the propaganda engine of 2020 would have used the concept to launch lies about how it'll eventually become so mild you really don't need the vaccine. A certain president was stating early on that it would just fade away. It didn't. All the info floating about was already confusing (and even contradictory) to the general population. There is no need to muddy the water with details that aren't applicable at this time, and may never be.
    - guscost 5y ago
      Even if your claim is correct: Hiding this kind of information from the public, and trying to steamroll them with “experts say” proclamations, has backfired spectacularly. Surely you can see that by now.
      - ksaj 5y ago
daenz 5y ago
>If you follow the news, you may have seen a bit of a dust-up in the last week on this topic. Pfizer announced the need for a booster shot has become more apparent, based on serum antibodies. Meanwhile, the Food and Drug Administration and Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said such a conclusion would be premature, since vaccine protection looks really good right now, including for the delta variant that has all of us concerned. Who do we trust in that situation? There are qualified scientists on both sides, but why do they disagree on something so critical, especially on how to message it?
- deregulateMed 5y ago
  Don't trust humans. Wait for scientific studies and replication. This is the scientific method.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - desine 5y ago
    When was the last time you saw a study actually replicated and not just "peer reviewed" and referenced?
    - deregulateMed 5y ago
      This is COVID, not some rat behavior study. It will be replicated.
      - desine 5y ago
        Slide into the DMs when that happens
  - _carbyau_ 5y ago
    I would also be suspect of any Biotech company announcing a "need" for more/variation product of theirs. But yes. Allow consensus to build before jumping to conclusions when we don't have a time pressure on that front.
DavideNL 5y ago
According to Der Spiegel (a German newspaper): > “In Israel, the effectiveness of the Pfizer/Biontech vaccine against coronavirus has declined significantly in recent weeks, according to the Ministry of Health. [...] > Since June 6, the vaccine's effectiveness in preventing infection and illness with symptoms in Israel has dropped to 64 percent, he said. However, the vaccine still wards off severe illness and hospitalization 93 percent of the time, according to the report. […] > Israel is considered a model country in the fight against coronavirus because of its successful vaccination campaign.” https://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/medizin/israel-impfschutz-gegen-delta-variante-laesst-nach-a-cb866375-d26b-4d4c-88ca-fc3c435b506d https://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/medizin/israel-impfschut...

29 points by Anon84 5y ago

Interesting and promising to hear. I dont like this sort of thing: > That’s why it remains so critical that more Americans get vaccinated not only to protect themselves and their loved ones, but to help stop the virus’s spread in their communities and thereby reduce its ability to mutate. I see this is a blog and not a journal paper, but this kind of motherhood statement lowers the overall credibility. Also, it was interesting to see that pfizer was quick to say a booster was necessary soon. I hadn't thought about that before but it's no surprise that pharmaceutical companies would want to do everything they can to turn this into ARR instead of just a one shot fix. This is something that is going to require real vigilance.

ideamotor 5y ago
It’s a factual scientific statement that absolutely should be stated by as many people of all professions as possible, especially scientists that study this exact topic. You lost your credibility when you threw this shit on it.
- amznthrwaway 5y ago
  CPAC audiences recently applauded low vaccination rates. The right wing has gone completely insane.
- version_five 5y ago
  I disagree, specifically with the idea of mixing telling people what to do with reporting cause and effect. The latter is clearly within the realm of the researcher's expertise. The former is a more complex political decision that has a lot of other factors. In this case, the statement (get vaccicanted) is not even controversial. But it's the principal of specialists mixing telling people as a group what to do with the results of their studies that I object to. I dont expect my point to be understood or appreciated (people literally looked into my comment history and downvoted past comments when I posted the GP) but I want to clarify my point. Treatment science as a religion is not a way forward, even if scientists say things you agree with.
  - glial 5y ago
    > the principal of specialists mixing telling people as a group what to do When specialists tell you not to drink contaminated lake water, or to wear a mask when removing asbestos tiles, or to get a colonoscopy when you turn 50, do you reject those recommendations also?
    - spookthesunset 5y ago
      Those people are acting within their specialty. For the last year and a half the only voice in the room that was allowed was that of the doomsday epidemiologist. Whatever recommendations they said were taken at face value with no thought or regard to any other specialty at all. Epidemiologists are not experts in political science, economics, mental health, education, public health, business, finance, behavioral health, law or anything else. When these people make unilateral public policy decisions, they are operating well outside their expertise. Unilateral myopic Technocracy ain’t what it was made out to be. It appears to quickly devolve into straight fascism.
      - ideamotor 5y ago
        Quite the contrary, we let many absolute psychos in the room. Notably, Trump. And we are far worse for it, and are about to be hit in the face for it. It’s absolutely false that only epidemiologists were the only voice or decision maker. You’re dreaming something up. P.S. I don’t downvote. Finally, I have a degree in public policy that included classes in political science, statistics, economics, business, finance, and law. So listen to me. ;)
      - glial 5y ago
        > Epidemiologists are not experts in political science, economics, mental health, education, public health, business, finance, behavioral health, law or anything else. OK, but the parent was complaining about recommendations that people get vaccinated, which is what I was responding to.
deregulateMed 5y ago
The blog post cites the scientific study here https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34182569/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34182569/
andrewclunn 5y ago
Opinions are facts wen the halls of power say they are. Now conform slave!
Someone1234 5y ago
The booster is targeting the delta variant, rather than the [original] alpha variant. It is essentially a tweak to the original vaccine to improve immune response. > no surprise that pharmaceutical companies would want to do everything they can to turn this into ARR instead of just a one shot fix Are you suggesting pharmaceutical companies are creating the COVID-19 variants? Because if not then this line of complaint is confusing.
vmception 5y ago
The public sector exists to curb the excesses of private organizations regardless of whether the private organization provides a useful service. It doesn’t require a conspiracy to understand that pfizer will both provide a benign working solution and also try to leverage their position in the community to sell unnecessary things This isn’t that hard

vimy 5y ago

Don’t viruses mutate to become less deadly over time? If so, why is there so much concern over mutations? Isn’t that what we want.

deregulateMed 5y ago
Viruses mutate without thought. Some will be more deadly, others less. Some more contagious, some less. Consider the seemingly randomness of chemistry at the biological level is what determines this. Although less deadly, highly contagious are more likely to spread for longer.
guscost 5y ago
What you are referring to is called the “transmission-virulence tradeoff theory” and while it does not guarantee that this virus will do what you claim, it is remarkable that public health officials and journalists do not mention it. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30734920/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30734920/
- ksaj 5y ago
  They would mention it if they saw it occurring. It's not. You can imagine if they did, the propaganda engine of 2020 would have used the concept to launch lies about how it'll eventually become so mild you really don't need the vaccine. A certain president was stating early on that it would just fade away. It didn't. All the info floating about was already confusing (and even contradictory) to the general population. There is no need to muddy the water with details that aren't applicable at this time, and may never be.
  - guscost 5y ago
    Even if your claim is correct: Hiding this kind of information from the public, and trying to steamroll them with “experts say” proclamations, has backfired spectacularly. Surely you can see that by now.
    - ksaj 5y ago

daenz 5y ago

>If you follow the news, you may have seen a bit of a dust-up in the last week on this topic. Pfizer announced the need for a booster shot has become more apparent, based on serum antibodies. Meanwhile, the Food and Drug Administration and Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said such a conclusion would be premature, since vaccine protection looks really good right now, including for the delta variant that has all of us concerned. Who do we trust in that situation? There are qualified scientists on both sides, but why do they disagree on something so critical, especially on how to message it?

deregulateMed 5y ago
Don't trust humans. Wait for scientific studies and replication. This is the scientific method.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- desine 5y ago
  When was the last time you saw a study actually replicated and not just "peer reviewed" and referenced?
  - deregulateMed 5y ago
    This is COVID, not some rat behavior study. It will be replicated.
    - desine 5y ago
      Slide into the DMs when that happens
- _carbyau_ 5y ago
  I would also be suspect of any Biotech company announcing a "need" for more/variation product of theirs. But yes. Allow consensus to build before jumping to conclusions when we don't have a time pressure on that front.

DavideNL 5y ago

According to Der Spiegel (a German newspaper): > “In Israel, the effectiveness of the Pfizer/Biontech vaccine against coronavirus has declined significantly in recent weeks, according to the Ministry of Health. [...] > Since June 6, the vaccine's effectiveness in preventing infection and illness with symptoms in Israel has dropped to 64 percent, he said. However, the vaccine still wards off severe illness and hospitalization 93 percent of the time, according to the report. […] > Israel is considered a model country in the fight against coronavirus because of its successful vaccination campaign.” https://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/medizin/israel-impfschutz-gegen-delta-variante-laesst-nach-a-cb866375-d26b-4d4c-88ca-fc3c435b506d https://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/medizin/israel-impfschut...