4 ms·

As a side remark, physics phd programs are a pretty awesome. The better programs pay a living wage if you aren't supporting a family. You can often travel the

As a side remark, physics phd programs are a pretty awesome. The better programs pay a living wage if you aren't supporting a family. You can often travel the world for free by attending conferences in exotic locations. The subject matter is fascinating, and the people tend to be interesting. You learn skills that are highly sought after. The degree is well respected and transferable to multiple industries. Your peers are collegial and want to see you succeed. Physicists tend to enjoy knowledge sharing. You can generally exit at any time and immediately transition into lucrative careers in, for example, tech and finance. It has it's downsides, but for how whimsical it is, it's a pretty soft landing if you decide you want out.

Cyph0n 5y ago
Disclaimer: I decided to drop out of a electrical engineering PhD program, so take the below with a grain of salt :) This is not limited to just physics, but all STEM PhDs. Actually, you should never join a PhD program if it’s not funded! As for the pay.. you’ll need to define “living”. Yes, you will likely travel, but research funding is more often than not very tight and restricted. As a result, travel conditions are not always ideal. As far as the subject matter goes, it’s as interesting as you make it out to be. The more crucial point is that you must enjoy what you’re doing to be able to pull through the 5 year+ program. Your peers can be collegial and friendly, yes, but make no mistake: competition can get fierce in academia too. Exiting is always an option, but once you’re a few years in, it can be hard to jump ship due to the sunk cost fallacy.
- ModernMech 5y ago
  > Yes, you will likely travel, but research funding is more often than not very tight and restricted. As a result, travel conditions are not always ideal. Tell me about it. I once had to travel to Japan for a conference. Problem was, I couldn't fly any carrier that wasn't American due to the conditions of the grant. What would have been a very long trip from the East Coast of the USA turned into multiple days and 4 flights (Philadelphia, Atlanta, LA, Seoul, Tokyo) just to satisfy the requirements. I was so exhausted by the time I got to the venue, I passed out for 14 hours and practically missed the first day of the conference.
_RPL5_ 5y ago
Can confirm most of the above :) Specifically, let's talk about "cost." I did a biology PhD at a respected school in a low COL area. The annual stipend, when I graduated in 2019, was around $31k. It was enough to afford basic necessities (rent, food, car) with a few hundred dollars to spare. Obviously, not enough to start a family, but I wasn't subsisting on ramen noodles either. Plus, the work I did as a researcher is something I can put on my resume as actual work experience. Stories like the above, about people going into massive debt for graduate degrees, send chills down my spine. I can't imagine the cost/benefit calculus that steers people onto that path.
- kevindong 5y ago
  My school's CS grad students [0] currently get a net stipend of $17,664/academic year ($19,188 stipend minus $1,524 in mandatory fees) if they are either a teaching or research assistant. In my college town, that's a tight budget but doable with a bit of effort However, given the state of even the CS intern job market, there's an interesting possibility where grad students could pretty easily make more in the course of a 10-15 week summer internship than they make over the course of an entire academic year (not counting the value of the tuition remission). [0]: https://www.cs.purdue.edu/graduate/financial_support/assistantships.html https://www.cs.purdue.edu/graduate/financial_support/assista...
  - sjg007 5y ago
    That's what I was paid in a high cost of living area. It taught me a lot about being broke and all the different types of leverage. E.g. if you can rent the 2bdrm in your name and then rent out a room you get more leverage. Too be honest I couldn't make the salary work and had to fund via credit cards and student loans as well. I thought it was a scam that the university paid so low... that and their anti union activities.
- criticas 5y ago
  If they did a cost/benefit calculus, they wouldn't be on that path (or that field, most likely). I have to remind myself that most people don't think like I do. There's a confirmation bias, where I'm surrounded by people who do - build mental models, analyzed them, then play what-if. My goal is to understand; for others, it's to experience, or to connect socially.
analog31 5y ago
I enjoyed grad school in physics. But I can't look you straight in the eye and tell you that it had a positive ROI in dollar terms. I married another grad student and between us we earned enough from our stipends to cover our modest living expenses and put away enough money for a down payment on a house. On the other hand, delaying my career by X years probably came with an opportunity cost. That's more speculative. I could have skipped college and become a computer programmer, in 1982. How long would I have lasted at that? Would I have enjoyed it enough to stay motivated? Would I have been any good at it? Would I have enjoyed working in finance? Another unknown. The one person I know who got a lucrative "superstar" career in NYC burned out of it and went back for a second degree in journalism. But a widely known rule of thumb is: Never go to grad school unless either someone else is paying for it, or you are in a job where each degree level guarantees an automatic salary bump.
rejectedandsad 5y ago
What you're seeing is top-school privilege here. Drive on I-40 for a few miles and the Physics PhD's aren't getting the same treatment, at all.
- BeetleB 5y ago
  Everything is true even in a non-top school, except perhaps the "exit anytime". For that, I can easily believe Wall Street looks at top universities.
  - rejectedandsad 5y ago
    OP went to Duke, and no, people at (picking a nearby school) UNC can't generally move to finance, maybe data science at tech companies. And people at the also-nearby Wake Forest and NC State probably can't even do that.
    - BeetleB 5y ago
      Agree. Merely pointing out that most of the other points the commenter made is correct.
ModernMech 5y ago
> You can generally exit at any time and immediately transition into lucrative careers in, for example, tech and finance. This is what's known as a "dick move" in academia, and it's a good way to burn bridges. Generally, the academic who is putting down the money to pay your tuition and stipend is making an investment. In return for a free education and $30k per year, you do research, you study, and eventually you are expected to graduate. Good academics will make sure you don't fail at this. Then, when the academic goes up for tenure or promotion, the committee will be looking at among other things, the students who graduated under their tutelage. If you decide you'd rather not stick it out, that's potentially years of work they invested in you, gone. All in, a graduate student can cost an academic upwards of $50-100k per year, and they are typically expected to foot that bill for at least 4 years, up to a max of 10. To get this money, the academic needs funding from grant agencies, whose funding rates can be as low as 20%. When submitting a grant proposal, academics generally do so with a particular student in mind who will do the research. If you leave in the middle of the grant, it likely spells failure (or at the least a huge setback) for the project, and possibly future grants, as it's too late to train up a brand new student to the point you were at. Just something to think about before entering a Ph.D. program. Remember these communities are small and have a long memory. Best not start something unless you really are committed, and won't just pack up shop at the first hint of dollar signs from Wall Street or Silicon Valley.
- bananaquant 5y ago
  I mostly agree with your sentiment, but would like to add that individual situations differ. In practice, the PhD experience is a full-time job for a student, and the one that is hard to quit psychologically. Many students start it right out of undergrad. They have not seen the world outside of academia, and having worked for a couple of years on their degree, they feel obliged to finish. That's when some professors choose to abuse their power and push some students into ridiculous working conditions. I have seen quite a number of students at my school reduced to nervous wrecks, while forced to stay in their programs for sixth year and beyond. That is, working on a PhD degree with a professor involves adult people who do it consentually for mutual benefit. If such relationship breaks, it is not fair to assume that it is the student who is a dick.
- 5y ago
bananaquant 5y ago
> You can generally exit at any time and immediately transition into lucrative careers in, for example, tech and finance. I work in both and routinely interview PhDs in physics. I would not say that the transition is immediate nor easy, as the quote implies. Both tech and finance have specific knowledge, e.g., programming skills and understanding of the markets, and most PhD graduates have to pick those up on their own. Having a degree from one of the Ivies will facilitate the screening round, but past that point it hardly counts.

Cyph0n 5y ago

Disclaimer: I decided to drop out of a electrical engineering PhD program, so take the below with a grain of salt :) This is not limited to just physics, but all STEM PhDs. Actually, you should never join a PhD program if it’s not funded! As for the pay.. you’ll need to define “living”. Yes, you will likely travel, but research funding is more often than not very tight and restricted. As a result, travel conditions are not always ideal. As far as the subject matter goes, it’s as interesting as you make it out to be. The more crucial point is that you must enjoy what you’re doing to be able to pull through the 5 year+ program. Your peers can be collegial and friendly, yes, but make no mistake: competition can get fierce in academia too. Exiting is always an option, but once you’re a few years in, it can be hard to jump ship due to the sunk cost fallacy.

ModernMech 5y ago
> Yes, you will likely travel, but research funding is more often than not very tight and restricted. As a result, travel conditions are not always ideal. Tell me about it. I once had to travel to Japan for a conference. Problem was, I couldn't fly any carrier that wasn't American due to the conditions of the grant. What would have been a very long trip from the East Coast of the USA turned into multiple days and 4 flights (Philadelphia, Atlanta, LA, Seoul, Tokyo) just to satisfy the requirements. I was so exhausted by the time I got to the venue, I passed out for 14 hours and practically missed the first day of the conference.

_RPL5_ 5y ago

Can confirm most of the above :) Specifically, let's talk about "cost." I did a biology PhD at a respected school in a low COL area. The annual stipend, when I graduated in 2019, was around $31k. It was enough to afford basic necessities (rent, food, car) with a few hundred dollars to spare. Obviously, not enough to start a family, but I wasn't subsisting on ramen noodles either. Plus, the work I did as a researcher is something I can put on my resume as actual work experience. Stories like the above, about people going into massive debt for graduate degrees, send chills down my spine. I can't imagine the cost/benefit calculus that steers people onto that path.

kevindong 5y ago
My school's CS grad students [0] currently get a net stipend of $17,664/academic year ($19,188 stipend minus $1,524 in mandatory fees) if they are either a teaching or research assistant. In my college town, that's a tight budget but doable with a bit of effort However, given the state of even the CS intern job market, there's an interesting possibility where grad students could pretty easily make more in the course of a 10-15 week summer internship than they make over the course of an entire academic year (not counting the value of the tuition remission). [0]: https://www.cs.purdue.edu/graduate/financial_support/assistantships.html https://www.cs.purdue.edu/graduate/financial_support/assista...
- sjg007 5y ago
  That's what I was paid in a high cost of living area. It taught me a lot about being broke and all the different types of leverage. E.g. if you can rent the 2bdrm in your name and then rent out a room you get more leverage. Too be honest I couldn't make the salary work and had to fund via credit cards and student loans as well. I thought it was a scam that the university paid so low... that and their anti union activities.
criticas 5y ago
If they did a cost/benefit calculus, they wouldn't be on that path (or that field, most likely). I have to remind myself that most people don't think like I do. There's a confirmation bias, where I'm surrounded by people who do - build mental models, analyzed them, then play what-if. My goal is to understand; for others, it's to experience, or to connect socially.

analog31 5y ago

I enjoyed grad school in physics. But I can't look you straight in the eye and tell you that it had a positive ROI in dollar terms. I married another grad student and between us we earned enough from our stipends to cover our modest living expenses and put away enough money for a down payment on a house. On the other hand, delaying my career by X years probably came with an opportunity cost. That's more speculative. I could have skipped college and become a computer programmer, in 1982. How long would I have lasted at that? Would I have enjoyed it enough to stay motivated? Would I have been any good at it? Would I have enjoyed working in finance? Another unknown. The one person I know who got a lucrative "superstar" career in NYC burned out of it and went back for a second degree in journalism. But a widely known rule of thumb is: Never go to grad school unless either someone else is paying for it, or you are in a job where each degree level guarantees an automatic salary bump.

rejectedandsad 5y ago

What you're seeing is top-school privilege here. Drive on I-40 for a few miles and the Physics PhD's aren't getting the same treatment, at all.

BeetleB 5y ago
Everything is true even in a non-top school, except perhaps the "exit anytime". For that, I can easily believe Wall Street looks at top universities.
- rejectedandsad 5y ago
  OP went to Duke, and no, people at (picking a nearby school) UNC can't generally move to finance, maybe data science at tech companies. And people at the also-nearby Wake Forest and NC State probably can't even do that.
  - BeetleB 5y ago
    Agree. Merely pointing out that most of the other points the commenter made is correct.

ModernMech 5y ago

> You can generally exit at any time and immediately transition into lucrative careers in, for example, tech and finance. This is what's known as a "dick move" in academia, and it's a good way to burn bridges. Generally, the academic who is putting down the money to pay your tuition and stipend is making an investment. In return for a free education and $30k per year, you do research, you study, and eventually you are expected to graduate. Good academics will make sure you don't fail at this. Then, when the academic goes up for tenure or promotion, the committee will be looking at among other things, the students who graduated under their tutelage. If you decide you'd rather not stick it out, that's potentially years of work they invested in you, gone. All in, a graduate student can cost an academic upwards of $50-100k per year, and they are typically expected to foot that bill for at least 4 years, up to a max of 10. To get this money, the academic needs funding from grant agencies, whose funding rates can be as low as 20%. When submitting a grant proposal, academics generally do so with a particular student in mind who will do the research. If you leave in the middle of the grant, it likely spells failure (or at the least a huge setback) for the project, and possibly future grants, as it's too late to train up a brand new student to the point you were at. Just something to think about before entering a Ph.D. program. Remember these communities are small and have a long memory. Best not start something unless you really are committed, and won't just pack up shop at the first hint of dollar signs from Wall Street or Silicon Valley.

bananaquant 5y ago
I mostly agree with your sentiment, but would like to add that individual situations differ. In practice, the PhD experience is a full-time job for a student, and the one that is hard to quit psychologically. Many students start it right out of undergrad. They have not seen the world outside of academia, and having worked for a couple of years on their degree, they feel obliged to finish. That's when some professors choose to abuse their power and push some students into ridiculous working conditions. I have seen quite a number of students at my school reduced to nervous wrecks, while forced to stay in their programs for sixth year and beyond. That is, working on a PhD degree with a professor involves adult people who do it consentually for mutual benefit. If such relationship breaks, it is not fair to assume that it is the student who is a dick.
5y ago

bananaquant 5y ago

> You can generally exit at any time and immediately transition into lucrative careers in, for example, tech and finance. I work in both and routinely interview PhDs in physics. I would not say that the transition is immediate nor easy, as the quote implies. Both tech and finance have specific knowledge, e.g., programming skills and understanding of the markets, and most PhD graduates have to pick those up on their own. Having a degree from one of the Ivies will facilitate the screening round, but past that point it hardly counts.