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How about just making college cheaper? That's the root cause of the grief. I have a masters degree in Japanese studies. It helped me get my first commercial so

How about just making college cheaper? That's the root cause of the grief. I have a masters degree in Japanese studies. It helped me get my first commercial software job at Sybase, testing localized products for the Japanese market. I have not done anything related to Japan since then, but the critical thinking skills and understanding of economics stayed with me my whole career. Not to mention the discipline of defending ideas when other people try to beat the crap out of them. Looking back, it was one of the more worthwhile things I've ever done, up there with learning Latin and reading Cicero. I would hate to see a scheme of incentives against following your curiosity.

qmmmur 5y ago
Funny noone responds to these sincere comments and instead drinks the neoliberal coolaid even harder. I agree entirely with your sentiment re curiosity and the inflated American price of education.
abathur 5y ago
Right. I'm sympathetic with the general thrust of the arguments here (and agree the incentives are misaligned), but intellectual curiosity isn't a good beast-of-burden. I work as a programmer, but have an MFA in creative writing (poetry). The messy human story is that I started undergrad in CS and was quickly worn down by pulling all-nighters on projects I wasn't invested in while trying to hold down a part-time night job. I realized it was over at the beginning of my second semester, in the first session of my required technical writing course. Writing was one of very few sources of joy for me, and I knew I couldn't throw it under the steamroller, too. I'll leave a lot out--it took me a while after this to even realize I could major in writing--but I eventually came back to programming through creative projects and literary analysis in grad school. I realize _studying art for several years to find yourself_ is a bourgeois luxury few get, but I was just a bright lower-middle-class kid from nowhere who'd never been intellectually engaged. Being engaged helps you build muscles you won't build warming a seat, but then you can use them for whatever you set your mind to.
- hodgesrm 5y ago
  Many of us took strange paths to get to where we are today. But finding yourself isn't just a bourgeois luxury. I would argue that any society that does not allow the cross-pollination of ideas that emerges from those journeys is poorer both spiritually and economically.
BuyMyBitcoins 5y ago
>” it was one of the more worthwhile things I've ever done, up there with learning Latin and reading Cicero.” I think it’s important to remember that a large number of college students aren’t there to partake in the fruits of a liberal arts education. They are enrolled because they know good jobs require a college degree. Or it was expected for middle class students to attend college and not go directly into the workforce. I don’t want to be a cynic, but college was much more of a life experience for myself and my peers than an enlightening process that taught me how to think critically.
- hodgesrm 5y ago
  That's certainly true of undergrad, but good graduate programs teach you to think. A lot of technical businesses are run by people with doctorates. I doubt that's simply a matter of technical knowledge, as specific technology becomes obsolete. It reflects the mental discipline necessary to get through a good program.
- hogFeast 5y ago
  Thinking critically is not an enlightening process, it is a thing that helps you make money. Being able to understand information, balance it appropriately, and then make decisions is a major shortage within most institutions. As an example, I used to work in equity research. It was 100% possible to tell within ten minutes of talking to an analyst what their UG was in (and whether they did the CFA). If they studied accountancy or finance, it was like talking to a brick wall. They would list a series of data points, they wouldn't really know how to balance them, and they would never ask second-level questions like: how did the company gather this data? Why did they gather this data? Those kind of questions just didn't compute. To give you another example, I later did a lot of work with retail investors. I got to see how people from different backgrounds made decisions. The number one worst investors were engineers, by a long shot. They had huge confidence in their own reasoning ability, (again) would overemphasize the data that was available, and ask no real relevant questions...they didn't even seem to know what questions were relevant (and btw, the best were usually lawyers...they usually had no information but they were able to think at that second-level...I also worked somewhere that had a former world heavyweight boxer as a client, and he was unbelievably switched on...again, literally no knowledge of finance but his reasoning ability was out of this world, he asked the right question every time). It is very hard to say whether this can be taught to everyone, it is almost intangible...but this kind of general critical thinking/reasoning is vitally important. And, imo, the US produces far too few of these people (with some reason, liberal arts in the US has been hijacked, I studied econ history but I would have studied a science in the US if I grew up there...US business schools are top notch in this area though, I will grant that). If you look at countries, East Asia particularly, that (often for political reasons) don't teach these subjects, it has a macroeconomic impact: company creation, r&d, how companies function, etc. And to be clear, what I am saying here is that these skills are universal...it isn't about science vs social science, that is just a dichotomy that doesn't exist (both areas need more of the other).
andreilys 5y ago
Why do you need to go into debt in order to learn and follow your curiosity?
dehrmann 5y ago
> How about just making college cheaper? That's the root cause of the grief. Part of the reason it's so expensive is easy government-backed student loans have enabled that. I'm fine with people studying film at Columbia, but at $250,000, not with government subsidized loans. Follow your dream, just don't make me pay for it.
criticas 5y ago
On problem is that many of the government interventions on "making college cheaper" had the reverse effect. Loans and grants made students price insensitive (and financial aid disguised the true price). Couple that with the fact that universities compete for students by spending money - nicer facilities, more programs, more administrators/support personnel. It will be interesting to see how the experiments by Purdue and Texas pan out. Both have initiatives in "affordable" degrees, and both have enough of a brand to be attractive alternatives.

qmmmur 5y ago

Funny noone responds to these sincere comments and instead drinks the neoliberal coolaid even harder. I agree entirely with your sentiment re curiosity and the inflated American price of education.

abathur 5y ago

Right. I'm sympathetic with the general thrust of the arguments here (and agree the incentives are misaligned), but intellectual curiosity isn't a good beast-of-burden. I work as a programmer, but have an MFA in creative writing (poetry). The messy human story is that I started undergrad in CS and was quickly worn down by pulling all-nighters on projects I wasn't invested in while trying to hold down a part-time night job. I realized it was over at the beginning of my second semester, in the first session of my required technical writing course. Writing was one of very few sources of joy for me, and I knew I couldn't throw it under the steamroller, too. I'll leave a lot out--it took me a while after this to even realize I could major in writing--but I eventually came back to programming through creative projects and literary analysis in grad school. I realize _studying art for several years to find yourself_ is a bourgeois luxury few get, but I was just a bright lower-middle-class kid from nowhere who'd never been intellectually engaged. Being engaged helps you build muscles you won't build warming a seat, but then you can use them for whatever you set your mind to.

hodgesrm 5y ago
Many of us took strange paths to get to where we are today. But finding yourself isn't just a bourgeois luxury. I would argue that any society that does not allow the cross-pollination of ideas that emerges from those journeys is poorer both spiritually and economically.

BuyMyBitcoins 5y ago

>” it was one of the more worthwhile things I've ever done, up there with learning Latin and reading Cicero.” I think it’s important to remember that a large number of college students aren’t there to partake in the fruits of a liberal arts education. They are enrolled because they know good jobs require a college degree. Or it was expected for middle class students to attend college and not go directly into the workforce. I don’t want to be a cynic, but college was much more of a life experience for myself and my peers than an enlightening process that taught me how to think critically.

hodgesrm 5y ago
That's certainly true of undergrad, but good graduate programs teach you to think. A lot of technical businesses are run by people with doctorates. I doubt that's simply a matter of technical knowledge, as specific technology becomes obsolete. It reflects the mental discipline necessary to get through a good program.
hogFeast 5y ago
Thinking critically is not an enlightening process, it is a thing that helps you make money. Being able to understand information, balance it appropriately, and then make decisions is a major shortage within most institutions. As an example, I used to work in equity research. It was 100% possible to tell within ten minutes of talking to an analyst what their UG was in (and whether they did the CFA). If they studied accountancy or finance, it was like talking to a brick wall. They would list a series of data points, they wouldn't really know how to balance them, and they would never ask second-level questions like: how did the company gather this data? Why did they gather this data? Those kind of questions just didn't compute. To give you another example, I later did a lot of work with retail investors. I got to see how people from different backgrounds made decisions. The number one worst investors were engineers, by a long shot. They had huge confidence in their own reasoning ability, (again) would overemphasize the data that was available, and ask no real relevant questions...they didn't even seem to know what questions were relevant (and btw, the best were usually lawyers...they usually had no information but they were able to think at that second-level...I also worked somewhere that had a former world heavyweight boxer as a client, and he was unbelievably switched on...again, literally no knowledge of finance but his reasoning ability was out of this world, he asked the right question every time). It is very hard to say whether this can be taught to everyone, it is almost intangible...but this kind of general critical thinking/reasoning is vitally important. And, imo, the US produces far too few of these people (with some reason, liberal arts in the US has been hijacked, I studied econ history but I would have studied a science in the US if I grew up there...US business schools are top notch in this area though, I will grant that). If you look at countries, East Asia particularly, that (often for political reasons) don't teach these subjects, it has a macroeconomic impact: company creation, r&d, how companies function, etc. And to be clear, what I am saying here is that these skills are universal...it isn't about science vs social science, that is just a dichotomy that doesn't exist (both areas need more of the other).

andreilys 5y ago

Why do you need to go into debt in order to learn and follow your curiosity?

dehrmann 5y ago

> How about just making college cheaper? That's the root cause of the grief. Part of the reason it's so expensive is easy government-backed student loans have enabled that. I'm fine with people studying film at Columbia, but at $250,000, not with government subsidized loans. Follow your dream, just don't make me pay for it.

criticas 5y ago

On problem is that many of the government interventions on "making college cheaper" had the reverse effect. Loans and grants made students price insensitive (and financial aid disguised the true price). Couple that with the fact that universities compete for students by spending money - nicer facilities, more programs, more administrators/support personnel. It will be interesting to see how the experiments by Purdue and Texas pan out. Both have initiatives in "affordable" degrees, and both have enough of a brand to be attractive alternatives.