6 ms·

This might be controversial, but MBS sounds like a horrible, horrible person. Yes, he presents a civilized face to the West, and he's "progressive", but just lo

This might be controversial, but MBS sounds like a horrible, horrible person. Yes, he presents a civilized face to the West, and he's "progressive", but just look at the Khashoggi murder for example. But people seem to be blind to this very dark side of the Saudi leadership. He lets women drive. So that means he's an open minded liberal. What about every other country in the world where women have been allowed to drive since forever? I think it's hard to fix an institution that's corrupt at the top.

DSingularity 5y ago
Please stop speaking negatively about Americas man. He’s doing good for things for bro-colonialism dude. Those dictatorships are good for business and America’s business is business.
- DSingularity 5y ago
  neo-colonialism*
drc500free 5y ago
MBS was accepted by the previous administration because Jared Kushner was convinced he was key to a Palestinian-Israeli peace treaty. That gave Erdogan leverage over the US, when he kept pounding the media drum with the footage he had of the Khashoggi murder. He used that to get the US to abandon the Syrian Kurds. We haven't yet seen if the new administration will view MBS the same way, but I doubt it. We've had two populist presidents in a row lose European control because they thought they knew better than their advisors about the Middle East. (Obama's version was surrendering Crimea to Putin so that Putin would give him an out for his Syrian "red line" blunder). This administration seems more boring and professional, like the staff have taken over the government for 4 years. So I don't think they have any misunderstanding of who MBS is and what value he does and doesn't provide.
- AtlasBarfed 5y ago
  "MBS was accepted by the previous administration ..." I would like to paint Trump as the only bad apple, but the Saudis have likely paid off every American President in the last 40 years with a flood of shadow money. He was accepted by the previous administration because Trump got a healthy dose of that shadow money (there's a half-dozen on the front page of google search results alone). There's a half dozen stories about this for Trump. Here's one for Obama: https://www.denverpost.com/2019/10/29/middleman-helped-saudi-give-obama-inaugural/ https://www.denverpost.com/2019/10/29/middleman-helped-saudi... We now know the inauguration fund is a big shadow slush fund for presidents. So is the presidential library, and the usual post-term speech circuit and "consulting". These people and power structures exist because of concentrated oil wealth, and we should move towards alternative energy and BEVs to bankrupt these corrupt regimes and the corruption they exert on our country.
- quickthrowman 5y ago
  > (Obama's version was surrendering Crimea to Putin so that Putin would give him an out for his Syrian "red line" blunder). What approach would you have taken to prevent Vladimir Putin from taking back Crimea? It’s a majority Russian area where they hold a long term naval base lease. The peninsula in question was gifted to Ukraine by the USSR in 1954. Also keep in mind the fact that Russia has nuclear weapons, and any direct military conflict with Russia has the potential to go nuclear. How do you proceed to prevent Russia from annexing Crimea?
SmellTheGlove 5y ago
> and he's "progressive" I know comments like this are frowned upon on HN, but I must: lol I get what you're saying, and I agree with your points. This bit just got me. The Khashoggi murder alone tells us all we need to know about MBS.
pyrophane 5y ago
I don’t believe that is controversial. Most western governments that have cared to look into it have concluded that he was behind the Khashoggi murder. And what can you call a de-facto head of state who orders a journalist murdered in another country for writing unflattering articles, if not a horrible person?
onetimeusename 5y ago
There was also the kidnapping and shakedown of Prince Alwaleed who used to be a familiar face in the news but disappeared for several years after the alleged kidnapping. From what I pieced together on Wikipedia it seems like a number of Saudi princes were kidnapped a few years back and forced to pay billions but I don't know all the details or what happened exactly. The company is mostly owned by the Saudi government but I guess that means, really, the Crown Prince and it seems he's very active in management despite not being on the board or listed as an executive.
- FridayoLeary 5y ago
  I remember that. MBS had a huge number of princes and other high-level officials arrested and locked up in the local Hilton. It was called the most expensive prison in the world. I understand they were tortured etc. while they were held there. To be released, from bogus charges of "corruption" they had to pay enormous ransoms. Basically, the government needed quick cash and MBS wanted to consolidate his position a bit more.
jsbdk 5y ago
>and he's "progressive" You make it sound like being progressive is the only choice that's morally right.
- fennecfoxen 5y ago
  I'd suggest the sense might be more that he is billed as "progressive" in that he's supposedly modern and forward-looking and tolerant... but it's still Saudi Arabia levels of progressiveness at best, and he's a butcher, and thus indeed, not morally right.
- AussieWog93 5y ago
  If your country is Saudi Arabia, it is.
- kennywinker 5y ago
  One of the main definitions of "progress" is "gradual betterment", which is yes definitely morally right.
- somewhereoutth 5y ago
  If we define 'progressive' as wanting to make the world a better place, then yes, yes it is. The more interesting question is why would anyone be against that?
antman 5y ago
The controversial part is that we don't promote horrible people and their wrongdoings. Everyone who reads international and regional media knows what MBS is.
danans 5y ago
> But people seem to be blind to this very dark side of the Saudi leadership. He lets women drive. So that means he's an open minded liberal. What about every other country in the world where women have been allowed to drive since forever? It's not by accident. After some increased scrutiny after 9/11, the Gulf oil states, Saudi being the most prominent, largely left the general public's awareness. Meanwhile, they started heavily investing in and marketing themselves as a technologically forward societies. They paid for many academics worldwide handsomely to move their research to satellite universities in the region, getting a foothold among intellectual elites. They created world class luxury airlines promoted by the most expensive western celebrity endorsements, gaining a foothold among upwardly mobile international travelers. This re-branding culminated with the much publicized, elaborate and warm Saudi reception of the previous US administration in the country, and the 2018 publishing of "The New Kingdom" magazine by the publisher of the National Enquirer (https://www.insider.com/inside-the-american-media-magazine-that-reads-like-saudi-propaganda-2020-2 https://www.insider.com/inside-the-american-media-magazine-t...), which was Saudi-royal-family propaganda targeted at common Americans in the grocery checkout aisle. This had the effect of normalizing the image of these regimes among the general public while papering over their history of repression of human rights at home and financing of religious and ethnic conflicts abroad.
- mistrial9 5y ago
  good list - also add big direct investment in the US smart phone ecosystem, therefore Board level and Angel'ish activities too
- babesh 5y ago
  Sly injection of American politics by the above poster and entirely bullshit. Biden’s administration has embraced Saudi Arabia just as much. In fact, if you actually look at history, you will see that the US has embraced Saudi Arabia for many decades (since at least the 80s). This is by BOTH parties. Secretary of State visit https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2021/07/09/saud-j09.html https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2021/07/09/saud-j09.html Brother of MBS visits and meets with Secretary of Defense https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2021/07/saudi-arabias-prince-khalid-describes-great-meeting-blinken https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2021/07/saudi-arabias-p...
moeadham 5y ago
MBS is the next generation Saddam Hussein. Just wait and see.
fooker 5y ago
Just curious, would you say the same about Joe Biden and the recent assassination of the president of Haiti?
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
8note 5y ago
He runs a slave state - there's no being good, except by comparison to other slavers.
BurningFrog 5y ago
No one gets to run a middle eastern country without assassinating a substantial number of people each year. The US certainly kills its fair share as well. My impression is that MBS wants to take Saudi into the 21 century. That seems very overdue and a good thing. He probably wants it because it will make his country richer and stronger, and perhaps be able to beat back his strategic enemy Iran. But it should also make life in The Kingdom saner and more humane for the people.
- DSingularity 5y ago
  Your impressions are wrong. Like them or not, the reason behind the culture war is not to bring modernity but to centralize power. Look at how much evil is enabled by American hedonism and you will understand.

DSingularity 5y ago

Please stop speaking negatively about Americas man. He’s doing good for things for bro-colonialism dude. Those dictatorships are good for business and America’s business is business.

DSingularity 5y ago
neo-colonialism*

drc500free 5y ago

MBS was accepted by the previous administration because Jared Kushner was convinced he was key to a Palestinian-Israeli peace treaty. That gave Erdogan leverage over the US, when he kept pounding the media drum with the footage he had of the Khashoggi murder. He used that to get the US to abandon the Syrian Kurds. We haven't yet seen if the new administration will view MBS the same way, but I doubt it. We've had two populist presidents in a row lose European control because they thought they knew better than their advisors about the Middle East. (Obama's version was surrendering Crimea to Putin so that Putin would give him an out for his Syrian "red line" blunder). This administration seems more boring and professional, like the staff have taken over the government for 4 years. So I don't think they have any misunderstanding of who MBS is and what value he does and doesn't provide.

AtlasBarfed 5y ago
"MBS was accepted by the previous administration ..." I would like to paint Trump as the only bad apple, but the Saudis have likely paid off every American President in the last 40 years with a flood of shadow money. He was accepted by the previous administration because Trump got a healthy dose of that shadow money (there's a half-dozen on the front page of google search results alone). There's a half dozen stories about this for Trump. Here's one for Obama: https://www.denverpost.com/2019/10/29/middleman-helped-saudi-give-obama-inaugural/ https://www.denverpost.com/2019/10/29/middleman-helped-saudi... We now know the inauguration fund is a big shadow slush fund for presidents. So is the presidential library, and the usual post-term speech circuit and "consulting". These people and power structures exist because of concentrated oil wealth, and we should move towards alternative energy and BEVs to bankrupt these corrupt regimes and the corruption they exert on our country.
quickthrowman 5y ago
> (Obama's version was surrendering Crimea to Putin so that Putin would give him an out for his Syrian "red line" blunder). What approach would you have taken to prevent Vladimir Putin from taking back Crimea? It’s a majority Russian area where they hold a long term naval base lease. The peninsula in question was gifted to Ukraine by the USSR in 1954. Also keep in mind the fact that Russia has nuclear weapons, and any direct military conflict with Russia has the potential to go nuclear. How do you proceed to prevent Russia from annexing Crimea?

SmellTheGlove 5y ago

> and he's "progressive" I know comments like this are frowned upon on HN, but I must: lol I get what you're saying, and I agree with your points. This bit just got me. The Khashoggi murder alone tells us all we need to know about MBS.

pyrophane 5y ago

I don’t believe that is controversial. Most western governments that have cared to look into it have concluded that he was behind the Khashoggi murder. And what can you call a de-facto head of state who orders a journalist murdered in another country for writing unflattering articles, if not a horrible person?

onetimeusename 5y ago

There was also the kidnapping and shakedown of Prince Alwaleed who used to be a familiar face in the news but disappeared for several years after the alleged kidnapping. From what I pieced together on Wikipedia it seems like a number of Saudi princes were kidnapped a few years back and forced to pay billions but I don't know all the details or what happened exactly. The company is mostly owned by the Saudi government but I guess that means, really, the Crown Prince and it seems he's very active in management despite not being on the board or listed as an executive.

FridayoLeary 5y ago
I remember that. MBS had a huge number of princes and other high-level officials arrested and locked up in the local Hilton. It was called the most expensive prison in the world. I understand they were tortured etc. while they were held there. To be released, from bogus charges of "corruption" they had to pay enormous ransoms. Basically, the government needed quick cash and MBS wanted to consolidate his position a bit more.

jsbdk 5y ago

>and he's "progressive" You make it sound like being progressive is the only choice that's morally right.

fennecfoxen 5y ago
I'd suggest the sense might be more that he is billed as "progressive" in that he's supposedly modern and forward-looking and tolerant... but it's still Saudi Arabia levels of progressiveness at best, and he's a butcher, and thus indeed, not morally right.
AussieWog93 5y ago
If your country is Saudi Arabia, it is.
kennywinker 5y ago
One of the main definitions of "progress" is "gradual betterment", which is yes definitely morally right.
somewhereoutth 5y ago
If we define 'progressive' as wanting to make the world a better place, then yes, yes it is. The more interesting question is why would anyone be against that?

antman 5y ago

The controversial part is that we don't promote horrible people and their wrongdoings. Everyone who reads international and regional media knows what MBS is.

danans 5y ago

> But people seem to be blind to this very dark side of the Saudi leadership. He lets women drive. So that means he's an open minded liberal. What about every other country in the world where women have been allowed to drive since forever? It's not by accident. After some increased scrutiny after 9/11, the Gulf oil states, Saudi being the most prominent, largely left the general public's awareness. Meanwhile, they started heavily investing in and marketing themselves as a technologically forward societies. They paid for many academics worldwide handsomely to move their research to satellite universities in the region, getting a foothold among intellectual elites. They created world class luxury airlines promoted by the most expensive western celebrity endorsements, gaining a foothold among upwardly mobile international travelers. This re-branding culminated with the much publicized, elaborate and warm Saudi reception of the previous US administration in the country, and the 2018 publishing of "The New Kingdom" magazine by the publisher of the National Enquirer (https://www.insider.com/inside-the-american-media-magazine-that-reads-like-saudi-propaganda-2020-2 https://www.insider.com/inside-the-american-media-magazine-t...), which was Saudi-royal-family propaganda targeted at common Americans in the grocery checkout aisle. This had the effect of normalizing the image of these regimes among the general public while papering over their history of repression of human rights at home and financing of religious and ethnic conflicts abroad.

mistrial9 5y ago
good list - also add big direct investment in the US smart phone ecosystem, therefore Board level and Angel'ish activities too
babesh 5y ago
Sly injection of American politics by the above poster and entirely bullshit. Biden’s administration has embraced Saudi Arabia just as much. In fact, if you actually look at history, you will see that the US has embraced Saudi Arabia for many decades (since at least the 80s). This is by BOTH parties. Secretary of State visit https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2021/07/09/saud-j09.html https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2021/07/09/saud-j09.html Brother of MBS visits and meets with Secretary of Defense https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2021/07/saudi-arabias-prince-khalid-describes-great-meeting-blinken https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2021/07/saudi-arabias-p...

moeadham 5y ago

MBS is the next generation Saddam Hussein. Just wait and see.

fooker 5y ago

Just curious, would you say the same about Joe Biden and the recent assassination of the president of Haiti?

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

8note 5y ago

He runs a slave state - there's no being good, except by comparison to other slavers.

BurningFrog 5y ago

No one gets to run a middle eastern country without assassinating a substantial number of people each year. The US certainly kills its fair share as well. My impression is that MBS wants to take Saudi into the 21 century. That seems very overdue and a good thing. He probably wants it because it will make his country richer and stronger, and perhaps be able to beat back his strategic enemy Iran. But it should also make life in The Kingdom saner and more humane for the people.

DSingularity 5y ago
Your impressions are wrong. Like them or not, the reason behind the culture war is not to bring modernity but to centralize power. Look at how much evil is enabled by American hedonism and you will understand.