4 ms·

My vulgarity is an expression of frustration in their overall apathy to the consequences of their actions. Forcing people to smother their feelings in the name

by tomc1985 5y ago

My vulgarity is an expression of frustration in their overall apathy to the consequences of their actions. Forcing people to smother their feelings in the name of 'genteel' discussion does a disservice to those who feel oppressed or misheard. Some things in this world are quite ugly and it is important to portray them as such. Perhaps you should evaluate why you let mere words affect you so much.

andrewzah 5y ago
I agree with you on vulgarity but life isn't really fair about this. Just like how wearing a suit unfairly makes a presentation more potent than casual wear. It is what it is. Being vulgar (even if technically justified) weakens the message for many people, especially when the other party is very polite and professional in return. edit: I would prefer if people weren't like that, but that's just one of the many flaws that humans have. Trying to change that instead of acknowledging it and adapting is an exercise in frustration. I'm not "affected by mere words", but I do prefer well worded arguments to mere expletives. And I'm not alone in that.
- tomc1985 5y ago
  I understand your point but I think that emotional suppression is a much greater crime than failing to be polite. After all, politeness has quite a storied history in being used to suppress and control people that are used to being 'othered', many of which feel things that are much stronger than I am expressing here
  - andrewzah 5y ago
    "politeness has quite a storied history in being used to suppress and control people" As I said, it's not fair. I agree with you that it shouldn't be that way. But I also accept the fact that that's how things are, unfortunately. Life isn't fair. Maybe someday humans will be better, but I think not. And this is getting off-tangent from dealing with the problem at hand.
    - tomc1985 5y ago
      I can afford not to care. Sure in situations resembling servility I might have to revert to a more polite manner of speaking, but I make great effort to avoid them as they are debasing. A lot of the folks here on HN are responsible for the current reality of tech. A nice polite discussion is great but I want to express strong feelings and make people feel bad for their choices. And politely debating the merits of something does not do that.
  - mixmastamyk 5y ago
    Agreed. If these folks are assholes, I want to hear the truth.
  - allturtles 5y ago
    Great, politeness is racist now?
    - tomc1985 5y ago
      I don't think that politeness is inherently racist, but it has been used as a tool of racial suppression, and as a way of keeping itinerants in line https://www.ferris.edu/HTMLS/news/jimcrow/question/2006/september.htm https://www.ferris.edu/HTMLS/news/jimcrow/question/2006/sept...
      - ozfive 5y ago
        This was really important for me to read. Thanks for sharing!
      - reayn 5y ago
        ...
      - allturtles 5y ago
        The segregated South was a culture of total racial oppression. So yes every aspect of the culture reflected and reinforced racial oppression, all backed by the threat (or reality) of violence. This doesn't cast doubt on the value of politeness, any more than it casts doubt on the value of signs, schools, water fountains, restaurants, or laws.
        tomc1985 5y ago
        It shouldn't cast doubt on the value of politeness, but it does cast doubt on its application and where and why it is appropriate. Are you saying that this legacy has not cast any shadows on modern culture?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
quesera 5y ago
> Perhaps you should evaluate why you let mere words affect you so much. Ironic. You just made it clear that you fully intended for these words to affect people strongly. The problem is that the second order effects are can vary and are out of your control. Vulgarity is often just a verbal tic for the inarticulate. If this doesn't apply in your case, then you and your message will be disadvantaged by association. It's all about knowing your audience. I'd like to think that HN readers don't need the carefully-placed emotion markers to get your message.
- tomc1985 5y ago
  > Vulgarity is often just a verbal tic for the inarticulate. If this doesn't apply in your case, then you and your message will be disadvantaged by association. This is incorrect. Vulgarity is the strongest possible choice when evaluating one's choice of words for emotional impact. I don't know what makes otherwise intelligent folk so damn afraid of them but that is not a part of the world I understand. Why would otherwise chaste people shout "FUCK!!" when they stub their toe? My mother, for example, is super conservative and would never cuss in polite company. But she has been known to let them slip in extreme circumstances, like stubbing her toe. There is an overall thread amongst "polite" circles of emotional suppression: don't show anger, don't be negative, couch all your words in disgustingly flowery language, etc etc etc. I don't understand why this particularly disgusting aspect of Victorian prudery and toxic positivity have managed to last so long, but it has. And I'm doing what I can to smash it.
  - quesera 5y ago
    > Why would otherwise chaste people shout "FUCK!!" when they stub their toe? Because in a moment of pain, people are emotional and inarticulate. Obviously. Vulgarity serves many purposes, but the fact that the words can be used almost anywhere, in almost any grammatical form, makes them substitutes for the more specific expressions that they replace. "Vulgarity is often just a verbal tic for the inarticulate." (Emphasis added) > Vulgarity is the strongest possible choice when evaluating one's choice of words for emotional impact. It really isn't. And again, often the emotional impact you elicit is not the one you are looking for. > I don't know what makes otherwise intelligent folk so damn afraid of them but that is not a part of the world I understand. So, the thing is, I'm on your side on this. Magic words are stupid. But that isn't what this discussion is about. Yes some people have major visceral reactions against the magic words, (and FWIW your approach does zero to change that) but more importantly, poor word choice and self-identifying as an untrustworthy interlocutor destroys your message. The people you communicate with have to trust you to not waste their time. People in the throes of emotional hostility might need psychological support, or medical attention, but they are not at the height of coherence. So readers might be attentive to your well-being, but they are devaluing your perspective on the situation because you have none. I'm not afraid of vulgarity at all. I'm as vulgar as they come, in person -- but in written communication, the reader is not keeping up with your emotional flow like they do in person. Peppering in the carefully-placed "jolt" (this is not my reaction, but is your stated intention though this is not a quote) sends the message that writer and reader are not sharing the same conversation. It's distracting at fnord best. > I don't understand why this particularly disgusting aspect of Victorian prudery and toxic positivity This is a deeply simplistic take. I don't think you are in a position to label other peoples thoughts. I am not (and I don't generally associate with anyone who is) prudish, positive, polite, or repressed. Nothing against them, it's just not my social scene. > And I'm doing what I can to smash it. Smashing is for patriarchies, pumpkins, and web design. We're just talking about the W3C here. My message here is that your message loses people with its laziness. You claim to think you're being impactful, but you are not. You might be categorizing yourself as a high-emotion-low-content sort of person, but if your message is worthwhile, that would be a bad thing. Intelligent people resist emotional persuasion, or at least try to. Do with that message as thou wilt, it makes no difference to me. If you value effective communication, it's worth giving some thought. Audience is everything.

andrewzah 5y ago

I agree with you on vulgarity but life isn't really fair about this. Just like how wearing a suit unfairly makes a presentation more potent than casual wear. It is what it is. Being vulgar (even if technically justified) weakens the message for many people, especially when the other party is very polite and professional in return. edit: I would prefer if people weren't like that, but that's just one of the many flaws that humans have. Trying to change that instead of acknowledging it and adapting is an exercise in frustration. I'm not "affected by mere words", but I do prefer well worded arguments to mere expletives. And I'm not alone in that.

tomc1985 5y ago
I understand your point but I think that emotional suppression is a much greater crime than failing to be polite. After all, politeness has quite a storied history in being used to suppress and control people that are used to being 'othered', many of which feel things that are much stronger than I am expressing here
- andrewzah 5y ago
  "politeness has quite a storied history in being used to suppress and control people" As I said, it's not fair. I agree with you that it shouldn't be that way. But I also accept the fact that that's how things are, unfortunately. Life isn't fair. Maybe someday humans will be better, but I think not. And this is getting off-tangent from dealing with the problem at hand.
  - tomc1985 5y ago
    I can afford not to care. Sure in situations resembling servility I might have to revert to a more polite manner of speaking, but I make great effort to avoid them as they are debasing. A lot of the folks here on HN are responsible for the current reality of tech. A nice polite discussion is great but I want to express strong feelings and make people feel bad for their choices. And politely debating the merits of something does not do that.
- mixmastamyk 5y ago
  Agreed. If these folks are assholes, I want to hear the truth.
- allturtles 5y ago
  Great, politeness is racist now?
  - tomc1985 5y ago
    I don't think that politeness is inherently racist, but it has been used as a tool of racial suppression, and as a way of keeping itinerants in line https://www.ferris.edu/HTMLS/news/jimcrow/question/2006/september.htm https://www.ferris.edu/HTMLS/news/jimcrow/question/2006/sept...
    - ozfive 5y ago
      This was really important for me to read. Thanks for sharing!
    - reayn 5y ago
      ...
    - allturtles 5y ago
      The segregated South was a culture of total racial oppression. So yes every aspect of the culture reflected and reinforced racial oppression, all backed by the threat (or reality) of violence. This doesn't cast doubt on the value of politeness, any more than it casts doubt on the value of signs, schools, water fountains, restaurants, or laws.
      - tomc1985 5y ago
        It shouldn't cast doubt on the value of politeness, but it does cast doubt on its application and where and why it is appropriate. Are you saying that this legacy has not cast any shadows on modern culture?
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

quesera 5y ago

> Perhaps you should evaluate why you let mere words affect you so much. Ironic. You just made it clear that you fully intended for these words to affect people strongly. The problem is that the second order effects are can vary and are out of your control. Vulgarity is often just a verbal tic for the inarticulate. If this doesn't apply in your case, then you and your message will be disadvantaged by association. It's all about knowing your audience. I'd like to think that HN readers don't need the carefully-placed emotion markers to get your message.

tomc1985 5y ago
> Vulgarity is often just a verbal tic for the inarticulate. If this doesn't apply in your case, then you and your message will be disadvantaged by association. This is incorrect. Vulgarity is the strongest possible choice when evaluating one's choice of words for emotional impact. I don't know what makes otherwise intelligent folk so damn afraid of them but that is not a part of the world I understand. Why would otherwise chaste people shout "FUCK!!" when they stub their toe? My mother, for example, is super conservative and would never cuss in polite company. But she has been known to let them slip in extreme circumstances, like stubbing her toe. There is an overall thread amongst "polite" circles of emotional suppression: don't show anger, don't be negative, couch all your words in disgustingly flowery language, etc etc etc. I don't understand why this particularly disgusting aspect of Victorian prudery and toxic positivity have managed to last so long, but it has. And I'm doing what I can to smash it.
- quesera 5y ago
  > Why would otherwise chaste people shout "FUCK!!" when they stub their toe? Because in a moment of pain, people are emotional and inarticulate. Obviously. Vulgarity serves many purposes, but the fact that the words can be used almost anywhere, in almost any grammatical form, makes them substitutes for the more specific expressions that they replace. "Vulgarity is often just a verbal tic for the inarticulate." (Emphasis added) > Vulgarity is the strongest possible choice when evaluating one's choice of words for emotional impact. It really isn't. And again, often the emotional impact you elicit is not the one you are looking for. > I don't know what makes otherwise intelligent folk so damn afraid of them but that is not a part of the world I understand. So, the thing is, I'm on your side on this. Magic words are stupid. But that isn't what this discussion is about. Yes some people have major visceral reactions against the magic words, (and FWIW your approach does zero to change that) but more importantly, poor word choice and self-identifying as an untrustworthy interlocutor destroys your message. The people you communicate with have to trust you to not waste their time. People in the throes of emotional hostility might need psychological support, or medical attention, but they are not at the height of coherence. So readers might be attentive to your well-being, but they are devaluing your perspective on the situation because you have none. I'm not afraid of vulgarity at all. I'm as vulgar as they come, in person -- but in written communication, the reader is not keeping up with your emotional flow like they do in person. Peppering in the carefully-placed "jolt" (this is not my reaction, but is your stated intention though this is not a quote) sends the message that writer and reader are not sharing the same conversation. It's distracting at fnord best. > I don't understand why this particularly disgusting aspect of Victorian prudery and toxic positivity This is a deeply simplistic take. I don't think you are in a position to label other peoples thoughts. I am not (and I don't generally associate with anyone who is) prudish, positive, polite, or repressed. Nothing against them, it's just not my social scene. > And I'm doing what I can to smash it. Smashing is for patriarchies, pumpkins, and web design. We're just talking about the W3C here. My message here is that your message loses people with its laziness. You claim to think you're being impactful, but you are not. You might be categorizing yourself as a high-emotion-low-content sort of person, but if your message is worthwhile, that would be a bad thing. Intelligent people resist emotional persuasion, or at least try to. Do with that message as thou wilt, it makes no difference to me. If you value effective communication, it's worth giving some thought. Audience is everything.