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I will be breaking contract law. EULA's still hold teeth without copyright because they fall under contract law, not copyright. Edit: I would like to add somet

I will be breaking contract law. EULA's still hold teeth without copyright because they fall under contract law, not copyright. Edit: I would like to add something about licenses and contract law. While FOSS licenses can also be contracts (https://writing.kemitchell.com/2019/03/09/Deprecation-Notice.html#its-not-clear-what-mit-and-bsd-are-legally https://writing.kemitchell.com/2019/03/09/Deprecation-Notice...), if copyright does not apply, then users (and companies) do not have to accept the license in order to use the software because they already have access to it since the source is open. However, with closed source software, the user does not get access until after they accept the EULA. This means that full contract law applies to the user, regardless of copyright on software. That is why closed source software wins if copyright does not apply: because it makes an end run around copyright anyway.

mjg59 5y ago
Why would I have to accept the contract to obtain the software? I can just copy it off another machine where someone else accepted the contract.
- ghoward 5y ago
  I would bet that the EULA covers that too by saying that if you copy it and give it to someone else, or allow someone else to copy it from you, that person is also under the EULA. Just checked: the Windows EULA [0] does not allow you to copy the software. And since it is a contract, that clause does not need copyright to be in force. So the person copying it to you can be targeted by Microsoft, and if you copied Windows without that user's permission, you are probably going to be charged with a violation of the CFAA. [1] These companies have been practicing law for longer than you. Don't underestimate them. Also, in my opinion, you are not really arguing in good faith. That is probably because my arguments really tear your article apart, and you are trying to find some way to discredit what I am saying. You can try, but I guarantee you that companies have a lot of experience protecting their closed source software. If copyright does not apply anymore, I also guarantee you that they will find, or probably already have found, a way to protect their software without it. Edit: The Windows agreement specifically says that using the software is an implicit agreement to the EULA, and Adobe's [2] says the same thing. Thus, even if you copy from someone else's computer, you are under the EULA. [0]: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/Useterms/OEM/Windows/10/UseTerms_OEM_Windows_10_English.htm https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/Useterms/OEM/Windows/10/UseT... [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_Fraud_and_Abuse_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_Fraud_and_Abuse_Act [2]: https://www.adobe.com/products/eula/tools/captivate.html https://www.adobe.com/products/eula/tools/captivate.html
  - mjg59 5y ago
    > So the person copying it to you can be targeted by Microsoft, and if you copied Windows without that user's permission, you are probably going to be charged with a violation of the CFAA. If I'm given permission to use a computer, and I then use that access to duplicate binaries that are not subject to copyright law and which the level of access I have been greanted gives me access to, which provision of the CFAA do you think I'm violating? > Edit: The Windows agreement specifically says that using the software is an implicit agreement to the EULA, and Adobe's [2] says the same thing. Thus, even if you copy from someone else's computer, you are under the EULA. That's something you can enforce if use of the software is controlled by law, and you can refuse me permission to use it if I don't agree to the EULA. If the code isn't copyrightable then you have no ability to do that - I'm entitled to use it without agreeing to the EULA, and asserting that I'm implicitly agreeing to it carries as much weight as me asserting that you agree to pay me $1000 by reading this comment.
    - ghoward 5y ago
      > If I'm given permission to use a computer, and I then use that access to duplicate binaries that are not subject to copyright law and which the level of access I have been greanted gives me access to, which provision of the CFAA do you think I'm violating? The CFAA covers use of a computer that extends beyond the authorized use. > That's something you can enforce if use of the software is controlled by law, and you can refuse me permission to use it if I don't agree to the EULA. If the code isn't copyrightable then you have no ability to do that - I'm entitled to use it without agreeing to the EULA, and asserting that I'm implicitly agreeing to it carries as much weight as me asserting that you agree to pay me $1000 by reading this comment. Good luck when a company comes after you for not agreeing to the EULA. You and I might agree that you are entitled to use it despite the EULA, but that is not what we are discussing; we are discussing how companies will protect their software if copyright does not apply. Saying that me reading your comment implies that I agree to pay you $1000 is wrong because of two major things: 1. You posted in a public forum. 2. I did not need to copy your comment to read it. Windows has not posted their source code in a public forum, and the use of their software on a new machine requires copying it. Actually, this talk of $1000 gave me an idea, so let's make a bet: if you can train a Copilot-like model with a decompiled copy of Windows and not be sued by Microsoft, I'll give you the $1000 you claim I owe you. But if they sue you, then obviously, they think there is something protecting their code, whether EULA or copyright. Good luck with that. Edit: Also, implied contracts are a thing. [1] [1]: https://www.investopedia.com/terms/i/implied_contract.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/i/implied_contract.asp

mjg59 5y ago

Why would I have to accept the contract to obtain the software? I can just copy it off another machine where someone else accepted the contract.

ghoward 5y ago
I would bet that the EULA covers that too by saying that if you copy it and give it to someone else, or allow someone else to copy it from you, that person is also under the EULA. Just checked: the Windows EULA [0] does not allow you to copy the software. And since it is a contract, that clause does not need copyright to be in force. So the person copying it to you can be targeted by Microsoft, and if you copied Windows without that user's permission, you are probably going to be charged with a violation of the CFAA. [1] These companies have been practicing law for longer than you. Don't underestimate them. Also, in my opinion, you are not really arguing in good faith. That is probably because my arguments really tear your article apart, and you are trying to find some way to discredit what I am saying. You can try, but I guarantee you that companies have a lot of experience protecting their closed source software. If copyright does not apply anymore, I also guarantee you that they will find, or probably already have found, a way to protect their software without it. Edit: The Windows agreement specifically says that using the software is an implicit agreement to the EULA, and Adobe's [2] says the same thing. Thus, even if you copy from someone else's computer, you are under the EULA. [0]: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/Useterms/OEM/Windows/10/UseTerms_OEM_Windows_10_English.htm https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/Useterms/OEM/Windows/10/UseT... [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_Fraud_and_Abuse_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_Fraud_and_Abuse_Act [2]: https://www.adobe.com/products/eula/tools/captivate.html https://www.adobe.com/products/eula/tools/captivate.html
- mjg59 5y ago
  > So the person copying it to you can be targeted by Microsoft, and if you copied Windows without that user's permission, you are probably going to be charged with a violation of the CFAA. If I'm given permission to use a computer, and I then use that access to duplicate binaries that are not subject to copyright law and which the level of access I have been greanted gives me access to, which provision of the CFAA do you think I'm violating? > Edit: The Windows agreement specifically says that using the software is an implicit agreement to the EULA, and Adobe's [2] says the same thing. Thus, even if you copy from someone else's computer, you are under the EULA. That's something you can enforce if use of the software is controlled by law, and you can refuse me permission to use it if I don't agree to the EULA. If the code isn't copyrightable then you have no ability to do that - I'm entitled to use it without agreeing to the EULA, and asserting that I'm implicitly agreeing to it carries as much weight as me asserting that you agree to pay me $1000 by reading this comment.
  - ghoward 5y ago
    > If I'm given permission to use a computer, and I then use that access to duplicate binaries that are not subject to copyright law and which the level of access I have been greanted gives me access to, which provision of the CFAA do you think I'm violating? The CFAA covers use of a computer that extends beyond the authorized use. > That's something you can enforce if use of the software is controlled by law, and you can refuse me permission to use it if I don't agree to the EULA. If the code isn't copyrightable then you have no ability to do that - I'm entitled to use it without agreeing to the EULA, and asserting that I'm implicitly agreeing to it carries as much weight as me asserting that you agree to pay me $1000 by reading this comment. Good luck when a company comes after you for not agreeing to the EULA. You and I might agree that you are entitled to use it despite the EULA, but that is not what we are discussing; we are discussing how companies will protect their software if copyright does not apply. Saying that me reading your comment implies that I agree to pay you $1000 is wrong because of two major things: 1. You posted in a public forum. 2. I did not need to copy your comment to read it. Windows has not posted their source code in a public forum, and the use of their software on a new machine requires copying it. Actually, this talk of $1000 gave me an idea, so let's make a bet: if you can train a Copilot-like model with a decompiled copy of Windows and not be sued by Microsoft, I'll give you the $1000 you claim I owe you. But if they sue you, then obviously, they think there is something protecting their code, whether EULA or copyright. Good luck with that. Edit: Also, implied contracts are a thing. [1] [1]: https://www.investopedia.com/terms/i/implied_contract.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/i/implied_contract.asp